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If the truth be told, conventional medicine is the leading cause of death in the USA so: just AVOID CONVENTIONAL MEDICINE altogether except for EMERGENCIES! Here is the research straight from the medical journals LE Magazine, August 2006 - Report: Death by Medicine
.Look at a few of the facts:
Estimated Annual Mortality and Economic Cost of Medical Intervention
Total 783,936 deaths each year from "health care" costing $282 billion
Table 3: Estimated 10-Year Death Rates from Medical Intervention
<B>
</B> Total 7,841,360
What to do instead? Find a good Naturopath for chronic and degenerative conditons who can help you get well enough so you won't NEED your prescriptions.
That is why informed people don't go to hospitals/doctors like a change of oil of a car
But others do - and that is why we are in the position we are in regards to expense for health care
I don't remember, another time in history, where so many people were going to doctors ALL the time. Do you?
If America is THAT sick, insurance can't help them.
If she is injured or her pre-existing condition acts up I can assure you she won't being saying Good for me. It'll be more like I can't afford these bills. We need UHC! Yep, so those like myself who can't afford a horse can be responsible for her medical bills.
the cost of health insurance is just too high for most Americans. If we do not provide another viable option then people will just refuse to buy insurance at all. Is that really a good plan?
Instead, we should encourage innovative, flexible healthcare options.
traditional insurance companies may not be the best option... and they surely should not be the ONLY option!
here are some ideas
1. more walk-in clinics that offer cheap healthcare
2. lower cost "insurance' plans: either higher deductibles, and/or limited coverage could drive down these prices
3. A serious crackdown on illegal immigrants. illegals are getting free healthcare, and it is driving up healthcare for everyone
4. A crackdown on frivilous lawsuits
5. designated public hospitals that are state or federally subsidized to keep costs down.
what I do not understand is how big business ISN'T in favor of single payer. It is one of the issues that the auto companies faced compared to their competitors in germany and asia where firms are not in the business of having to negotiate health insurance. That is something that is the burden of society as a whole and not the firm.
Employment tied health care causes inefficiencies in the labour market. It causes cost burdens on employers that foreign competitors don't have and it also causes misallocation of labour since it causes workers to stick to jobs that are not in the best interest of either the worker or the employer
It certainly burdens American businesses with a big competitive disadvantage versus foreign competitors.
However, in the internal market, all big companies have the same disadvantage, and...health care worries severely restricts the ability of employees to quit and start businesses that compete with them. Also, smaller businesses has smaller risk pools, so insurance for their employees become more expensive. Or they are unable to offer health insurance. Hence they cannot recruit from the same talent pool as the big businesses.
In a healthy market, businesses grow old and die, being replaced by new businesses. A large company that grow complacent and inefficient will find its market share taken over by smaller, leaner and hungrier businesses.
The present health care system nearly smothers this mechanism, restricting startups to mainly young men in their twenties. Anecdotally not the demographic most likly to succeed at it, outside of IT and tech.
I suspect not having to worry as much about startups that aren't part of the established equilibrium can be very comfortable to businesses. Maybe so comfortable that the long-term effects of a competitive disadvantage against foreign companies don't seem so...urgent.
single payer (meaning paid for by the WORKING taxpayer) will kill most working and taxpaying americans
look at medicaid...(our CURRENT singlepayer system).....it covers about 32 million people (its currently up to 40 million people during this recession)...the ANNUAL cost....over 340 billion in 2008..projected to be 400 billion for this year alone....that's just to cover 30-40 million people.........what would it cost to cover our full population of 310 million..........somewhere in the range of 2.5-5 TRILLION....now divide that by the 120 million WORKERS (1040 filers(according to the IRS)) and you get 25k to 50k PER WORKING HOUSEHOLD PER YEAR..............single payer is unsustainable.,....................we current ly pay about 800 billion a year just for medicare and medicaid...so ending them would take 800 billion off of that figure but its still 2-4.5 trillion ADDITIONAL taxdollars that we dont have a year
but the problem is only less than 1/3 of the population will actually pay
according to the IRS there are about 105 million taxpaying (1040) households
Can a taxpayer afford a 25,000 to 50,000 dollar EXTRA TAX BILL EVERY YEAR on top of the ALREADY high taxes we pay?????????????????????????even if it is a new or expanded 'medicare' tax....do you really think that 1/3 of the country should get slammed with 25k-50k more year taxes each for give to the whole country....do you realy think we should increase the debt by 3 trillion or more a year...because it certainly cant be paid for
I would love a singlepayer.......if you could show me HOW it could be paid for....it cant....therefore it shouldnt be
single payer (meaning paid for by the WORKING taxpayer) will kill most americans
look at medicaid...(our CURRENT singlepayer system).....it covers about 32 million people (its currently up to 40 million people during this recession)...the ANNUAL cost....over 340 billion in 2008..projected to be 400 billion for this year alone....that's just to cover 30-40 million people.........what would it cost to cover our full population of 310 million..........somewhere in the range of 2.5-5 TRILLION....now divide that by the 120 million WORKERS (1040 filers(according to the IRS)) and you get 25k to 50k PER WORKING HOUSEHOLD PER YEAR..............single payer is unsustainable.,....................we current ly pay about 800 billion a year just for medicare and medicaid...so ending them would take 800 billion off of that figure but its still 2-4.5 trillion ADDITIONAL taxdollars that we dont have a year
but the problem is only less than 1/3 of the population will actually pay
according to the IRS there are about 105 million taxpaying (1040) households
Can a taxpayer afford a 25,000 to 50,000 dollar EXTRA TAX BILL EVERY YEAR on top of the ALREADY high taxes we pay?????????????????????????even if it is a new or expanded 'medicare' tax....do you really think that 1/3 of the country should get slammed with 25k-50k more year taxes each for give to the whole country....do you realy think we should increase the debt by 3 trillion or more a year...because it certainly cant be paid for
I would love a singlepayer.......if you could show me HOW it could be paid for....it cant....therefore it shouldnt be
Do you have that on cut and paste? With all the elipses and question marks? You spam it on every thread on the subject, and it never seems to matter to you when people point out that medicare and medicaid covers the most expensive patient groups!
This gets pointed out to you on every thread. Medicare patients are many times more expensive than the average American, and medicaid not far behind.
And how do you think most other countries manage to run single payer systems at half the cost of the US system?
(Incidentally, a single payer system in the US would cost about as much per head as it does elsewhere. About the same as the total that is spent on health care by the US government at the moment)
Do you have that on cut and paste? With all the elipses and question marks? You spam it on every thread on the subject, and it never seems to matter to you when people point out that medicare and medicaid covers the most expensive patient groups!
This gets pointed out to you on every thread. Medicare patients are many times more expensive than the average American, and medicaid not far behind.
And how do you think most other countries manage to run single payer systems at half the cost of the US system?
(Incidentally, a single payer system in the US would cost about as much per head as it does elsewhere. About the same as the total that is spent on health care by the US government at the moment)
and everytime I post these FACTS.. you imeadiatly slam it..are you a stalker???
yes medicare is the most expensive...because of the demographics...sorry to say but the elderly have the most costs/needs
yes medicaid is a singlepayer
yes medicaid costs 340 billion (and climbing) a year
yes it only covers 32 million people
yes I use the CHEAPER of the two.. medicare or medicaid..caid is cheaper
yes the MATH is there... mediciad costs 340 billion to cover 32 million....our country is 320 million...10 times the amount on medciad.. meaning the cost would be in the RANGE of 2.5 trillion to 5 trillion...depending on all the demographics and RESTRICTIONS (ie mediciad refuses coverage (DENIED) for that proceedure))
Quote:
Incidentally, a single payer system in the US would cost about as much per head as it does elsewhere. About the same as the total that is spent on health care by the US government at the moment
which is exactly what I am saying...2.5 -5 trillion a year for the entire population....or ARE YOU TRYING to say that we could somehow cover 320 million people for the price we currently cover 70 million....if you think that I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya
and the FACT that according to the IRS, there are 105 million FILERS (1040,1040a,1040ez, etc) on whom many dont pay at all or get MOST back... but I use the complete 105 million filers.
fact 2.5-5 trillion divided by the 105 million taxpayers would be 25k-50 EACH TAXPAYER
The way the math works in other health systems is that health coverage is compulsory and either paid for by insurance payments (heavily regulated) or by a levy on wages.
They keep the costs down as follows:
- younger, more healthy people, effectively subsidize older less healthy people. The overall cost is not a straight multiple of the most expensive people as suggested in the post above.
- there is a more doctor friendly legal environment. Doctors and other health care professionals do not need to buy practice protection insurance or practice defensive medicine to the same extent.
- government intervenes with Big Pharma to keep the cost of medication down
- their administrative systems are much simpler and cheaper to operate.
How about we go by what this country was founded on and let each state determine the best way to care for it's residents?
I do not favor a federal one size fits all plan, but would consider favoring a plan that a state comes up with to cover it's own. I would have to hear the details of it before I could decide if it were a yes or a no.
What may work in NJ, probably will not work in AL, for instance.
I don't know about that! Kids in Alabama, NJ and all the other states need their immunizations. Insurance should cover that. The protocols for treating diseases are the same throughout the country. There are no glaring differences from state to state in this stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guamanians
the cost of health insurance is just too high for most Americans. If we do not provide another viable option then people will just refuse to buy insurance at all. Is that really a good plan?
Instead, we should encourage innovative, flexible healthcare options.
traditional insurance companies may not be the best option... and they surely should not be the ONLY option!
here are some ideas
1. more walk-in clinics that offer cheap healthcare "Cheap" in more ways than one, sometimes. Continuity of care (e.g. using the same provider as much as possible) is important to get high quality care.
2. lower cost "insurance' plans: either higher deductibles, and/or limited coverage could drive down these prices Yes, and people would be paying insurance premiums and never getting any care for their money. The premiums wouldn't go down that much, and the care that was eventually needed with 'limited coverage' would get dumped on the public, just like now.
3. A serious crackdown on illegal immigrants. illegals are getting free healthcare, and it is driving up healthcare for everyone I don't think all 'illegals' are getting free care now. I don't think such a 'crackdown' would make much of a dent in health care costs.
4. A crackdown on frivilous lawsuits Would also not make much difference. No lawyer will take a "frivolous" case, and tort reform is estimated to save about 2% of health costs. However, to make everyone happy, I'd go along with it.
5. designated public hospitals that are state or federally subsidized to keep costs down.
Where have you been for the last few hundred years? We've always had those!
It just cracks me up when people who really know nothing about providing health care come up with "new" ideas that are not new at all, and already are in effect. Most health care takes place outside of hospitals these days, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guamanians
I've noticed that healthy people don't have many problems with healthcare. Why is that?
Now we have many on this board who think their own good health is due to something they personally have done (or not done), but 'tain't necessarily so.
The way the math works in other health systems is that health coverage is compulsory and either paid for by insurance payments (heavily regulated) or by a levy on wages.
They keep the costs down as follows:
- younger, more healthy people, effectively subsidize older less healthy people. The overall cost is not a straight multiple of the most expensive people as suggested in the post above.
- there is a more doctor friendly legal environment. Doctors and other health care professionals do not need to buy practice protection insurance or practice defensive medicine to the same extent.
- government intervenes with Big Pharma to keep the cost of medication down
- their administrative systems are much simpler and cheaper to operate.
and what he is not telling you is that many of the COSTS, are from outside the medical doctor arena.
did you know the AVERAGE hospital spends 380,000 A MONTH just on electricity????? yep thats 4.5 MILLION a year just to run the electric for all the services in a hospital,,,not to mention the nurses, custodial workers, food workers, linnen services, etc
even at your basic doctors office, the amount you pay (either you the individual or an insurance//government payer) doesnt just go into the doctors pocket....do you think the 60-100 dollars for a office visit goes straight into the doctors pocket???????.................he/she still has to pay rent/mortgage/lease/prop taxes, on the property(office).............he/she still has to pay high electric bills, heating bills, air conditioning bills.........he/she still had to pay for all the supplies/equipment (just think about that MRI machine...its 1.2 million dollars....even if he paid it off over time (lets say 5 years), that would be about 20,000 A MONTH (20,000x12mothsx5 years=1.2 mill)..........he/she still has to pay a cleaning/sanitizing service...............he/she still has to pay a staff(even if its one nurse/recept/transcriptionist)............not to mention a miriad of other bills BEFORE he can put one dime into his own pocket.
this is why 'single payer' / universal/ national will do NOTHING to lower the COSTS...it MAY eliminate or lower INSURANCE..but it will NOT lower the actual costs and assosiated costs
Last edited by workingclasshero; 02-07-2011 at 08:29 AM..
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don't go to hospitals/doctors like a change of oil of a car
