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jk482 ... (quotes) "I'm fully aware of the complexity of airspace .... I grew up sitting behind a pilot", then ".... I'm not claiming to be a pilot or so knowledgeable about flying that I can outsmart a pilot. I'm saying that distractions while flying and distractions while driving are two completely different circumtances."
Since you now admit ... after being so adamant that you were knowledgeable about aviation, having sat behind a pilot for so many of your tender years ... that you really don't know squat about flying and the skills and mental processes that are required for safety in aviation, you sir, are coming from a position of profound ignorance to make any assertion about the correlation of concentration required to operate an airplane and operate a car.
Having further ridiculed me for my statements made from my personal experience about airport operations from your position of absolute ignorance, you've done little to display your intelligence (if any ... I'm trying to be kind about your possibility of intelligence here and allow that you may have some) as opposed to your emotional response to mobile phones. Your claim that you grew up with a pilot certainly didn't imbue you with any real piloting knowledge or insight into the man's thought processes unless you're some prodigy that picked it up by osmosis, which I highly doubt.
As a pilot (and most certainly not "an advanced pilot", just an older surviving one) ... I can assure you that the mental energy levels of flying safely in single pilot GA are far more intense and complex than driving a car.
Since a main point of this thread has been that using a device for communications is so devastating to one's ability to think and respond, it's a very basic false premise that you're operating from. I can categorically state that your repeated assertion that " .... distractions while flying and driving are two completely different circumstances" is baloney you've fabricated solely from your vivid imagination to support your view and is without any basis in fact.
Which brings us back to your assertion that device based communications and operating a vehicle are not compatible or safe operations and mobile phones should be banned. I say that's not the problem; inept, incompetent, and inconsiderate drivers are the fundamental problem.
Taking away their mobile phones will not turn them into competent and safe drivers. There are already enough laws on the books regarding how to operate a vehicle and those laws are what need to be enforced to get poor drivers off the road.
Many people have repeatedly demonstrated their ability to repeatedly operate their vehicles safely for a long time and utilize the convenience of mobile communications.
The fact that you continue to bring up flying, and its complexity, while ignoring the other points made in my posts show that your comparisons and point of view hold little substance.
You assuring me that flying an airplane is more complex than driving a car does nothing to disprove my point that using a hand-held device while driving is distracting, and does nothing to help your stance that using a device is similar in an aircraft and thus, why not ban it from aircraft too?
I only claimed to understand the complexity of flying, never once did I claim 'so adamantly' to be knowledgeable regarding piloting a plane. Don't put words in my mouth, and don't make an attempt to bully by using false and/or misconstrued information.
You say that many people have repeatedly demonstrated their ability to use a hand-held cellular device safely while driving a car, but many, many people have not. So think about it logically here for a second. Some people can drive and talk, many can't. What to do?
Your writing style is intelligent, but again, holds very little substance when it comes to the issue of talking and driving.
After your intellectually dishonest and emotionally vapid postings here, I find your condescending critique nothing but more of your emotional passive-aggressive appeal about a topic you apparently believe in.
You'll not convince me this way to agree to ban cell phones by drivers.
You're still missing the point which I've repeatedly asserted ... it's not the tool, it's the driver(s) that's the problem here. Enforce the existing laws regarding driving performance and get the poor drivers off the road.
There's clearly many people who use mobile communications safely and there's no justification to remove that tool from their use. It's also been invaluable in saving lives and protecting property; ie, I've reported drunk drivers, impaired drivers, fires, stalled vehicles, suspicious load-outs of livestock, hunters out of season, hunters on "posted" private land (to the landowner), dangerously aggressive drivers cutting through traffic, and many other situations to the authorities during the course of my years driving with a mobile phone available. I have no doubt that many others use this tool for the same public safety purposes.
Re: "adamantly" ... I'll let others read your responses to my original statement asserting it was clear that you didn't really know about flying and let them judge for themselves what the nature of your responses were. IMO, you sounded over the top defensive to me after asserting that you knew all about flying. Why is it when I use the same writing techniques that you do that you're just being logical and convincing and I'm a bully? Can't stand what you dish out, even though you're a big boy now?
After your intellectually dishonest and emotionally vapid postings here, I find your condescending critique nothing but more of your emotional passive-aggressive appeal about a topic you apparently believe in.
You'll not convince me this way to agree to ban cell phones by drivers.
You're still missing the point which I've repeatedly asserted ... it's not the tool, it's the driver(s) that's the problem here. Enforce the existing laws regarding driving performance and get the poor drivers off the road.
There's clearly many people who use mobile communications safely and there's no justification to remove that tool from their use. It's also been invaluable in saving lives and protecting property; ie, I've reported drunk drivers, impaired drivers, fires, stalled vehicles, suspicious load-outs of livestock, hunters out of season, hunters on "posted" private land (to the landowner), dangerously aggressive drivers cutting through traffic, and many other situations to the authorities during the course of my years driving with a mobile phone available. I have no doubt that many others use this tool for the same public safety purposes.
Re: "adamantly" ... I'll let others read your responses to my original statement asserting it was clear that you didn't really know about flying and let them judge for themselves what the nature of your responses were. IMO, you sounded over the top defensive to me after asserting that you knew all about flying. Why is it when I use the same writing techniques that you do that you're just being logical and convincing and I'm a bully? Can't stand what you dish out, even though you're a big boy now?
Seems as if you're searching for an argument, but hey, I've got time.
But let me ask you, have you read, heard of and taken into account the thousands of studies done on the human brain when it comes to cell phone usage, reaction time and driving? Had you done some research instead of spouting your knowledge about flying and horrible, distracted drivers, you would know that every last study conducted also included other possible driver distractions: the radio (as you suggested as well), crying babies, intoxication, road rage, passenger interference, anxiety and loud music. Every last study has shown that a driver chatting away on their cell phone is more dangerous than driving with any one of these distractions being repetitive.
Different studies have also proven that more crashes are caused by cell phones (whether it be talking, dialing, SMSing, or simply the telephone ringing) than are caused by intoxicated drivers - they just aren't documented and many times, the drivers are not ticketed. This, to add, only takes into account the amount of crashes where drivers admitted to using a cell phone during the time of or just before the crash. Think about the amount of drivers who didn't admit to the cause of their crash. And you don't think it's a problem?
If you took the time to read my posts, I mentioned numerous times that emergency situations (this includes public safety) are exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit
It's also been invaluable in saving lives and protecting property
Where did you obtain this information? Here in CT there was an article in the newspaper recently that noted since phones were banned, driver accidents decreased on our interstates by 17% in two years, which on average, saved as many as three lives.
You're using your opinion as fact in this matter. A little research never hurt anyone.
And, also, when did I say I 'knew all about flying?' Enough about airplanes, please. It has nothing to do with the thread.
Well, again ... yes, indeed ... I've read a number of those well publicized studies asserting how badly drivers behave when using a mobile phone.
BTW, have you "read the thousands of studies" as you imply from the tone of your question about that issue to me?
In my opinion, many of those "studies" were performed to sustantiate a pre-determined bias & conclusion against mobile phone useage vs other driving distractions.
Where they lose me is when they determine relative degrees of unsafe conditions, and assert that a "cell phone user" is more dangerous than a distracted parent.
I've seen a lot more of parents totally turned around in their seat trying to take care of a child than I have cell phone drivers totally ignoring the road. It's especially a problem in larger vehicles with a bigger distance between the driver's seat and the next row. Flailing arms away, I assume they're steering with a knee jammed against the steering wheel while totally diverted from the road and traffic.
On the road, I've seen a lot of drivers trying to fiddle with CD's or tapes or the radio, some with their heads bobbing up and down under the dashboard as they try to retrieve a disc or whatever it is that is so much more important to them than attending to their driving tasks.
I've seen a fair number of drivers distracted by portable DVD players, or newspapers, too. I've watched as some of these people have run off the road or hit obstacles on the side of the road.
My neighbor who served many years as a highway patrolman tells me that most of the single car rollovers he investigated were the result of a distracted driver running off the roadway to the right edge and then overcorrecting to get back on the highway. He cited mobile phone use as the distraction in a minute fraction of those incidents he investigated. We're in Wyoming with a lot of wide open spaces where mobile phones simply don't work and folks still get distracted enough from other means to lose control of their vehicles.
I've personally seen thousands of people driving vehicles while talking on a mobile phone, and never seen an accident happen with that as a causation. However, I have seen a lot of traffic incidents from other causes & distractions.
Of course, all of my ... and your ... anecdotal experience has been negated by a previous poster here. So I'd guess none of my experience is relevant, any more than yours at this point.
You've got a cause, but, IMO .... you've got the wrong solution to the problem of bad driving. Making people accountable and responsible for their actions under the current laws would be much better. (Oh, didn't I say that several times before? did you not understand what I said? or are you blind to those statements I made because they don't parrot what you want to hear?)
Well, again ... yes, indeed ... I've read a number of those well publicized studies asserting how badly drivers behave when using a mobile phone.
BTW, have you "read the thousands of studies" as you imply from the tone of your question about that issue to me?
In my opinion, many of those "studies" were performed to sustantiate a pre-determined bias & conclusion against mobile phone useage vs other driving distractions.
Where they lose me is when they determine relative degrees of unsafe conditions, and assert that a "cell phone user" is more dangerous than a distracted parent.
I've seen a lot more of parents totally turned around in their seat trying to take care of a child than I have cell phone drivers totally ignoring the road. It's especially a problem in larger vehicles with a bigger distance between the driver's seat and the next row. Flailing arms away, I assume they're steering with a knee jammed against the steering wheel while totally diverted from the road and traffic.
On the road, I've seen a lot of drivers trying to fiddle with CD's or tapes or the radio, some with their heads bobbing up and down under the dashboard as they try to retrieve a disc or whatever it is that is so much more important to them than attending to their driving tasks.
I've seen a fair number of drivers distracted by portable DVD players, or newspapers, too. I've watched as some of these people have run off the road or hit obstacles on the side of the road.
My neighbor who served many years as a highway patrolman tells me that most of the single car rollovers he investigated were the result of a distracted driver running off the roadway to the right edge and then overcorrecting to get back on the highway. He cited mobile phone use as the distraction in a minute fraction of those incidents he investigated. We're in Wyoming with a lot of wide open spaces where mobile phones simply don't work and folks still get distracted enough from other means to lose control of their vehicles.
I've personally seen thousands of people driving vehicles while talking on a mobile phone, and never seen an accident happen with that as a causation. However, I have seen a lot of traffic incidents from other causes & distractions.
Of course, all of my ... and your ... anecdotal experience has been negated by a previous poster here. So I'd guess none of my experience is relevant, any more than yours at this point.
You've got a cause, but, IMO .... you've got the wrong solution to the problem of bad driving. Making people accountable and responsible for their actions under the current laws would be much better. (Oh, didn't I say that several times before? did you not understand what I said? or are you blind to those statements I made because they don't parrot what you want to hear?)
I have read the vast majority of the outcome of those studies and they all agree that driving with a cell phone is very dangerous - every last one.
You saying that you've seen many accidents when people were distracted doing other things doesn't negate the fact that cell phones are as dangerous, if not more dangerous, to use while driving. Just because those crashes didn't involve cell phones (that you know of), doesn't mean they are not considered a risk.
I don't think you and I take account that we live in two completely different areas of the nation (CT and I believe WY), where people drive differently, have different habits, and just have a different way of life. What works in CT may not work in WY or CA or FL or SC. In CT, drivers are rates as the 7th worst in the country. Maybe that has something to do with it.
Either way, we're going in circles so we're not getting anywhere.
There are already distracted-driving laws on the books in every state. Don't take away my right to CAUTIOUSLY and CAREFULLY use a cell phone in my car, just because a few idiots can't chew gum and walk at the same time.
Hey, it's dangerous to change the channel on the radio, too, or to have a heated argument with a passenger, or to pick up the bottle the baby just dropped in the back seat. You can't eliminate risk on the road. You CAN, however, fine careless drivers ... who are gonna be careless whether they have a phone in their hand or not.
Those "Hang Up and Drive" bumper stickers really irritate me. Don't assume all drivers are bad because they're on the phone, or that all phone users are bad drivers. Whenever I see one of those, I pick up the phone and call someone, and make sure the driver sees me.
For the record, I've been in two accidents, ever. One involved a deer running out in front of me, and the other involved a young lady running a red light and hitting me. Neither one had anything to do with my being on a cell phone.
And I've been using cell phones in the car since back when they had the big bulky bag phones, with the handset wired into the bag and the antenna that you rolled down your window for and mounted it on top so you could stick it outside the car to get reception. I've driven literally hundreds of thousands of miles, many of them while I was on the phone. I'm no more distracted than when I start signing along with a good song on the radio. Some of us really can multitask.
I'm so tired of people thinking "ban this, ban that" is a solution to everything. Seems like it's always OK until someone wants to ban something that affects you, and then of course it's a different story. Just enforce the distracted-driving laws, make people take responsibility for their actions, and leave the rest of us alone. Stop being busybodies and trying to restrict others' choices and freedoms.
I'm sorry, but this kind of stuff really gets me fired up!
hmmmmm, I feel the very same way about smoking....
you can't possibly drive safely and talk on the phone at the same time, to me, that would be like being under the influence...? I see people shopping, and on the phone at the same time...they can't walk nor stear their shopping cart...
Late to the party again, but I'll throw in my two cent's worth, anyway. As a professional truck driver, I feel that talking on a cell phone (hands-free or not) significantly degrades my ability to drive with the same level of concentration as I would without. But that's just me. As for banning cell phones in cars, I'm dead set against it. We already have laws covering "Inattentive Driving" so enforce 'em. Some people can drive well while using cell phones, some can't. Bottom line is personal accountability. But there are SO many things that one can be distracting behind the wheel. Do we ban EVERYTHING except driving? Is that even possible? What if I'm looking down into the car next to my truck and don't see the emergency situation developing in front of me? What's the difference between that and talking on a cell phone? I have seen car drivers AND my fellow truckers use every electronic device ever invented as they drive. Yes, I think it's poor judgement, (IMHO) but, like I said above, we already have the laws on the books to take care of that. Why pull someone over on a cell phone when they are driving safely???
I agree with Crew Chief. Face it, approximately one third of drivers are just plain bad drivers, the next third are OK drivers, but don't get them too distracted, and the rest are good drivers. Keeping cell phones out of the bottom two-thirds' hand while driving would make me very happy but how do you identify them?
There's an old saying, "anyone who drives slower than you is an idiot and anyone who drives faster than you is a maniac" Take your pick.
You see, you've finally admitted that there's a primary causation to driving accidents: the drivers and their culture of driving, which comes about (IMHO) from how driving laws are enforced in the area and how the local drivers regard the laws on the books.
Lax law enforcement of safety targeted driving laws leads to people not being careful with their driving habits as well as being courteous and safe drivers.
Seat belt useage, for example, is much higher in states where not using one is a primary traffic offense as opposed to those states where it's a secondary (you can't be stopped for this violation) offense.
Driving with your lights on during times of darkness or inclement weather is a common sense and safety item; many states consider this a primary offense and will pull you over to discuss why you're not driving with your lights on; as a result, most people in those states do remember to turn their lights on when appropriate.
Some states are very aggressive about enforcing speed limits on the roads. The result is a driving culture where most folks obey (or stay under) the speed limit. Where they don't enforce it very much, you'll see areas where drivers rountinely speed well in excess of the speed limit (the proverbial 85-90 mph bumper-to-bumper crowd, like in SOCAL, to name one state I drive in where they really get with the speed ... unlike Seattle, where they aggressively enforce the speed limits and you don't see many people driving 10-15-20+ over the speed limit). In Western NE, most folks drive well under the speed limit because it's a "zero tolerance" over the limit enforced area.
In Southern FL, people routinely drive on the road shoulders to pass traffic, or get very aggressive about tailgating. The few times I've driven there recently (towing a 5 horse trailer), it was amusing. Folks tried every possible action to go around the line of traffic, and the closer they got on my tail, the longer a safety margin I held behind the traffic ahead so I could safely respond to the stop and go on the freeways while minimizing the potential for a rear-end crash. (you haven't had your day spoiled until some idiot runs into the back end of a trailer with horses and you're stuck on the side of the road instead of having the livestock safely home). Having seen the aggressive tailgaters ignored by the state patrol troopers cruising by, I can only infer that it's not important to them, so the driver's out there get tacit approval of the tailgating practice. Unlike Colorado, where I got cited once for having approximately a 2 car distance between me and the patrol car ahead at 25 mph in a 30 mph zone ... "following too close", that'l be 3 points on your license and $65, please, plus court costs.
Colorado is getting a lot more aggressive about citing aggressive drivers in traffic; they're finally recognizing that causations of road rage as well as traffic pattern disruptions that result in accidents. Results: more folks are calling in and reporting on their mobile phones and the patrol has a better chance of visiting with the aggressive drivers, if not actually catching them in the act.
Some locales enforce their turn signal laws. You get a driving culture of folks who actually use their turn signals when appropriate. Hand in hand with that, many people actually extend the courtesy to yield right of way to someone trying to change lanes, or allow folks to enter into traffic when they signal their intentions.
What's significant here is that we're all driving (well, for the most part) the same types of vehicles with the same distractions across the country. I don't believe there's a significant difference in the intelligence or skills of the drivers across the country, either.
The real difference has to be the local culture of driving and how people perceive others on the road they share and the responsibilities of driving.
It's not about the distractions that they face from one of the many devices available to them while driving. It's a much more fundamental problem than that .... poor drivers are simply poor drivers. We should get them trained or off the road.
I agree with Crew Chief. Face it, approximately one third of drivers are just plain bad drivers, the next third are OK drivers, but don't get them too distracted, and the rest are good drivers. Keeping cell phones out of the bottom two-thirds' hand while driving would make me very happy but how do you identify them?
There's an old saying, "anyone who drives slower than you is an idiot and anyone who drives faster than you is a maniac" Take your pick.
Thanks, Buckhead Broker! I firmly believe that GA officials restrict through trucks in Atlanta to the I-285 for our own safety...
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