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Of all the nations in North Africa and the middle east, Lebanon and Egypt are closer to being a model of democracy than any other country in that region.
If the radical muslims leave it alone they will do just fine. It's when the radicals step up to take control with their psychoislamwetdream that all goes to hell.
And we have our own psycho anti-terrorism groups over here instilling fear among the masses. I would say the DHS has taken over with a mere "threat to national security" to do what they want.
"Free" and "Islamic" have some contradictory points. If by "Islamic" you mean Sharia law then you can not have an equal society because Sharia codifies inequality between Muslims and non-Muslims.
You know at one time the Bible codified a lot of silly, unjust shhit, but increasingly (dare I say it) liberal societies figured out ways to get around the more odious portions (well except for the ones that conservatives in the U.S. still stubbornly still cling to). So, as I said, with a little creativity, introspection and the realization that there is only so much silly religious shhit that any modern society is willing to put up with Sharia, which I would argue you haven't the faintest clue of knowledge or understanding will go by the wayside of other stupid shhit we call religion.
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Some belief systems have restrictions on some human rights built in to them. Naziism was a belief system. Do you think it could become the underpinning of a full schema of human and economic rights?
Like the one that sanctified the African slave trade? By the way, read back my post before dipping into your Godwin's tool bag.
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What about seggregation as it was in the American South? That was a Democracy since the majority supported it. Does that make it an acceptable form of government?
Once again read back my post, perhaps on the second or maybe third read you can figure out the answer to that all by yourself. A little hint, how was segregation ended, a new system of government? (Dude don't try to appeal to my racial heritage, you aren't up to it).
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In Islam non-Muslims are, at best, second class subjects. They don't HAVE any rights but they are GIVEN certain rights as long as they remain subservient to Muslims. That is not a good recipe for equality.
But one aspect of Egyptian society has changed in recent years. Young Egyptians, gazing through the windows of the Internet, have gained a keener sense than many of their elders of the freedoms and opportunities they lack. They have found in social media a way to interact and share ideas, bypassing, in virtual space, the restrictions placed on physical freedom of assembly.
As I've stated several times, the people of Egypt have been far more exposed to western culture and society than much of the Middle East and I suspect that given a choice between some Taliban existence or Big Mac and Coca-Cola to go along with Archie Bunker reruns, they will choose the latter far more than the former.
As I've stated several times, the people of Egypt have been far more exposed to western culture and society than much of the Middle East and I suspect that given a choice between some Taliban existence or Big Mac and Coca-Cola to go along with Archie Bunker reruns, they will choose the latter far more than the former.
Now to switch modes so that I can address a serious poster.... (it's always good to kiss up to a mod)
I was reading up on the Grand Mufti who uncharacteristically issued a Fatwa against statuary, the Egyptians, regardless of religion promptly put it in the round file especially the street merchants who sell tourist copies of Egypt's pyramids and famous statues. I short, most folks just laughed it off.
Now to switch modes so that I can address a serious poster.... (it's always good to kiss up to a mod)
I was reading up on the Grand Mufti who uncharacteristically issued a Fatwa against statuary, the Egyptians, regardless of religion promptly put it in the round file especially the street merchants who sell tourist copies of Egypt's pyramids and famous statues. I short, most folks just laughed it off.
Hey, don't look at me, the only moderating I do in this area of the forum is clean spam I come across, I'm just a poster here.
However, that is exactly what I've been trying to point out, not to mention that the Muslim Brotherhood has at best 20% support from people, if we listen to the likes of the CFR, Brookings Institute, the Nixon Center, Foreign Policy.com, etc... Which is why so many are pinning hopes on El Baradei, as he is seen as the most logical and moderate spokesperson for all the different factions.
As was pointed out several days ago, this is a fluid and rapidly changing event that has seen its share of ebbs and flows, but I think El Baradei is a great sign, as he has a great deal of support of Egypt's youth and merchant class who would rather make money than war.
You know at one time the Bible codified a lot of silly, unjust shhit, but increasingly (dare I say it) liberal societies figured out ways to get around the more odious portions (well except for the ones that conservatives in the U.S. still stubbornly still cling to). So, as I said, with a little creativity, introspection and the realization that there is only so much silly religious shhit that any modern society is willing to put up with Sharia, which I would argue you haven't the faintest clue of knowledge or understanding will go by the wayside of other stupid shhit we call religion.
Just because you dismiss religion as silly shhit does not mean everyone does. Religion, meaning Islam, still plays a central role in the Middle East. To deny that is to deny reality.
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Like the one that sanctified the African slave trade? By the way, read back my post before dipping into your Godwin's tool bag.
Christianity played a major role in organizing the abolitionist movement.
lol @ Godwin's law. I had never heard of that before. Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Still, you said "I say that because I am a believer in social evolution, every society needs to have the opportunity to find its own way, in manner most fitting for its members. It is highly unimaginative, and more than a bit paternalistic to believe that a society cannot craft a full schemata of human and economic rights underpinned by virtually any belief system." Given that, Nazism fits the criteria of "any belief system" so either adjust your statement or refute what I said.
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Once again read back my post, perhaps on the second or maybe third read you can figure out the answer to that all by yourself. A little hint, how was segregation ended, a new system of government?
Segregation was ended by outside forces brought to bear on the institutions of the South, including the Federal governemnt using National Guard troops. That is not "social evolution" as you said is the way societies 'find their own way'.
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(Dude don't try to appeal to my racial heritage, you aren't up to it).
I have no clue what your racial heritage is, nor do I care.
Just because you dismiss religion as silly shhit does not mean everyone does. Religion, meaning Islam, still plays a central role in the Middle East. To deny that is to deny reality.
If you read my post carefully, you will note that I never disregarded the influence of religion in any country because as you point out, that would indeed be a denial of reality. The point is, however, that evolving societies have an uncanny knack for molding religious edicts into religious suggestions which preserves a religious framework while adopting the core enlightened values indicative of a modern society. This is one of those facts of life that over time have reigned in many of the Muslim Brotherhood's visions of how society should be, and those same social pressures will continue to eat away at many other values held by them and other more radical islamist.
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Still, you said "I say that because I am a believer in social evolution, every society needs to have the opportunity to find its own way, in manner most fitting for its members. It is highly unimaginative, and more than a bit paternalistic to believe that a society cannot craft a full schemata of human and economic rights underpinned by virtually any belief system." Given that, Nazism fits the criteria of "any belief system" so either adjust your statement or refute what I said.
A lesson in reading comprehension.
I also don't understand why it would be oh so awful if Egypt became a free Islamic democracy, with certain caveats, if Egyptians chose to do so.
I say that because I am a believer in social evolution, every society needs to have the opportunity to find its own way, in manner most fitting for its members. It is highly unimaginative, and more than a bit paternalistic to believe that a society cannot craft a full schemata of human and economic rights underpinned by virtually any belief system.
Apparently I gave the group some undeserved credit but having failed in spelling out everything... the caveats would be freedom of expression, protection of minority rights, just to name a few.
You are a somewhat smart guy, was it really necessary for me to spell out the definition of "virtually?"
Anyway, as for the Nazi Germany, was German fascism fitting of its members or just those who weren't socialist, gay, trade unionist, decadent artist and writers, or those not Aryan enough? I would think that it wasn't. But you are free to think otherwise.
Segregation was ended by outside forces brought to bear on the institutions of the South, including the Federal governemnt using National Guard troops. That is not "social evolution" as you said is the way societies 'find their own way'.
I suppose it depends one how you define outside, doesn't it? Of course it ignores the fact that the leadership of the Civil Rights movement were all from the South as were the vast majority of their followers. It also ignores the fact that the federal government who ordered in the National guard, Lyndon Baines Johnson or his Attorney General Ramsey Clark were from the South as well.
As for the South, the last time I checked, the South at that point had rejoined the United States, after a short hiatus, and as such was covered by the same laws that governed the whole, ergo, the south was in, not out. Further the very laws that were used to end the mentioned injustices were not laws or principles of justice foreign to the south or its leaders. They were part and parcel of their very own belief system. They just had to taught to read them for comprehension. A reading problem that still seems to exist.
The point is, however, that evolving societies have an uncanny knack for molding religious edicts into religious suggestions which preserves a religious framework while adopting the core enlightened values indicative of a modern society.
That has certainly been the case in traditionally Christian countries. It remains to be seen if it will be the case in the Middle East. Islam has proven stubbornly resistant to any kind of reform over the centuries.
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A lesson in reading comprehension.
I also don't understand why it would be oh so awful if Egypt became a free Islamic democracy, with certain caveats, if Egyptians chose to do so.
I say that because I am a believer in social evolution, every society needs to have the opportunity to find its own way, in manner most fitting for its members. It is highly unimaginative, and more than a bit paternalistic to believe that a society cannot craft a full schemata of human and economic rights underpinned by virtually any belief system.
Apparently I gave the group some undeserved credit but having failed in spelling out everything... the caveats would be freedom of expression, protection of minority rights, just to name a few.
Those are good caveats. I do feel that htey needed to be listed specifically because far too many people include them automatically when they hear the word "Democracy" but they are not an inteinsic part of Democracy and need to be listed independantly.
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You are a somewhat smart guy,..
I, somewhat, thank you.
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Anyway, as for the Nazi Germany, was German fascism fitting of its members or just those who weren't socialist, gay, trade unionist, decadent artist and writers, or those not Aryan enough? I would think that it wasn't. But you are free to think otherwise.
It's a cautionary tale of what can happen in a Democratic system with those caveats are not present.
I hope for the best ofr Egypt's future. The old regime has exited the stage. It remains what will happen when a new one enteres. If it is an extremist one let's hope that it doesn't take another 30 years to throw it out.
If it happens to work out as he envisions, he would be a shoo in.
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