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You're kidding right? Don't you recall the brutal suppression of student protesters? Of course you don't MSNBC didn't report it!
Are you suggesting Iran isn't a theocracy? Or perhaps you believe it is a hot bed of femanism?
I'm not suggesting Iran is any of those things and I'm not suggesting it isn't. I am definitely saying that the term "thugocracy" is some clap trap third grade nonsensical depiction that is in the context of the prior post is laughable.
When you and others start posting about how Egypt was, and Yemen is, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, are all equally if not more oppressive than Iran, then I'll take those comments seriously. Because Americans have no problem with all the things you list.
YOU as in YOU don't give a flip about none of that stuff, otherwise you would be posting about how oppressive these other places are and worse, but Iran remains the focus and because you are told to remain focused on Iran and you are an obedient servant to the tripe peddled by the press.
If American's truly cared about all those things, they would invade about 40% of those nations we call friends that no one ever talks about, like Uzbekistan that boiled people alive in public for Gods sake, where is your outrage over that? There is none because you really don't care.
Last edited by TnHilltopper; 02-13-2011 at 07:49 AM..
Reason: too harsh
I'm not suggesting Iran is any of those things and I'm not suggesting it isn't. I am definitely saying that the term "thugocracy" is some clap trap third grade nonsensical depiction that is in the context of the prior post is laughable.
When you and others start posting about how Egypt was, and Yemen is, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, are all equally if not more oppressive than Iran, then I'll take those comments seriously. Because Americans have no problem will all the things you list.
YOU as in YOU don't give a flip about none of that stuff, otherwise you would be posting about how oppressive these other places are and worse, but Iran remains the focus and because you are told to remain focused on Iran and you are an obedient servant to the tripe peddled by the press.
In fact, I'm going to give you a gold star for being the most well behaved and obedient student of the day.
If American's truly cared about all those things, they would invade about 40% of those nations we call friends that no one ever talks about, like Uzbekistan that boiled people alive in public for Gods sake, where is your outrage over that? There is none because you really don't care.
Zionist want the Iranian government toppled by the U.S. They want two powerful puppet regimes in the Middle East that they control by proxy with the lobbying tools of AIPAC. The Zionist are playing Israel manifest destiny. Their hope is to keep all of the focus off of them as they slowly creep and take more and more land. The political change in Egypt will only be spun more and more to focus on Iran as SHorebaby is trying to do with this thread. Predictable.
Zionist want the Iranian government toppled by the U.S. They want two powerful puppet regimes in the Middle East that they control by proxy with the lobbying tools of AIPAC. The Zionist are playing Israel manifest destiny. Their hope is to keep all of the focus off of them as they slowly creep and take more and more land. The political change in Egypt will only be spun more and more to focus on Iran as SHorebaby is trying to do with this thread. Predictable.
I'm reluctant to use the term Zionist, because like the people of Israel, there are a number of different stripes of Zionism, as there are many and varied opinions inside Israel.
I mean there are Jews within Israel who protest the very existence of Israel itself, but we do not see this in our press, we only see the pro-Likud, right wing government of Bibi's version of Israel in our press.
Within Zionist circles there is a growing movement among the younger generation to divest itself from US foreign aid and our 'special relationship', because as they see it, it hinders Israel from pursuing its own self interest and is ham strung by US positions in the Middle East. In other words, they at least recognize that Israeli and US interests and goals in the region are not the same as is often repeated in the press.
I don't believe it is fair to say, "Israel wants" unless we differentiate between the government of Israel and the people, as they are rarely the same. I mean consider for a moment if someone were to say right now, "The US wants to attack Iran", is this wholly accurate? I mean there are many people who don't want to attack Iran, and there are even people in the Pentagon who don't want to attack Iran, but perhaps there are those in the Obama administration who do. See what I'm getting at?
I realize it is nit picking, but if we are not clear and nuanced in our discussions with Israel then these discussions always end up regressive and lets face it, this topic is one of the most complex and difficult subjects to comprehend in all of foreign policy and world affairs.
I mean look at the title of the thread and how distorted and inaccurate it actually is. How does one set out to have a reasoned argument when the premised topic isn't even true to begin with? (chuckling)
I'm reluctant to use the term Zionist, because like the people of Israel, there are a number of different stripes of Zionism, as there are many and varied opinions inside Israel.
I mean there are Jews within Israel who protest the very existence of Israel itself, but we do not see this in our press, we only see the pro-Likud, right wing government of Bibi's version of Israel in our press.
Within Zionist circles there is a growing movement among the younger generation to divest itself from US foreign aid and our 'special relationship', because as they see it, it hinders Israel from pursuing its own self interest and is ham strung by US positions in the Middle East. In other words, they at least recognize that Israeli and US interests and goals in the region are not the same as is often repeated in the press.
I don't believe it is fair to say, "Israel wants" unless we differentiate between the government of Israel and the people, as they are rarely the same. I mean consider for a moment if someone were to say right now, "The US wants to attack Iran", is this wholly accurate? I mean there are many people who don't want to attack Iran, and there are even people in the Pentagon who don't want to attack Iran, but perhaps there are those in the Obama administration who do. See what I'm getting at?
I realize it is nit picking, but if we are not clear and nuanced in our discussions with Israel then these discussions always end up regressive and lets face it, this topic is one of the most complex and difficult subjects to comprehend in all of foreign policy and world affairs.
I mean look at the title of the thread and how distorted and inaccurate it actually is. How does one set out to have a reasoned argument when the premised topic isn't even true to begin with? (chuckling)
You are probably more accurate. I painted Zionism would too broad of a brush.
I'm not suggesting Iran is any of those things and I'm not suggesting it isn't. I am definitely saying that the term "thugocracy" is some clap trap third grade nonsensical depiction that is in the context of the prior post is laughable.
When you and others start posting about how Egypt was, and Yemen is, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, are all equally if not more oppressive than Iran, then I'll take those comments seriously. Because Americans have no problem with all the things you list.
YOU as in YOU don't give a flip about none of that stuff, otherwise you would be posting about how oppressive these other places are and worse, but Iran remains the focus and because you are told to remain focused on Iran and you are an obedient servant to the tripe peddled by the press.
If American's truly cared about all those things, they would invade about 40% of those nations we call friends that no one ever talks about, like Uzbekistan that boiled people alive in public for Gods sake, where is your outrage over that? There is none because you really don't care.
You don't get it, our primary concern is the US. Iran is an enemy of the US, not because I say so, but because they say so. You may think they love us, but the reality is they don't.
You are right I realy don't care because they do not pose a threat to the US. The left needs to make up it's collective mind. Either it will defend all theocracies (as you are wont to do) or we start trying to transform them starting with those that threaten our national interest.
When you and others start posting about how Egypt was, and Yemen is, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, are all equally if not more oppressive than Iran, then I'll take those comments seriously.
Your list says it all! How revealing
You think that posters should protest the PRO-US regimes. And pointedly omitted the MOST OPPRESSIVE dictatorships - Syria and Libya. Why? Well, they are enemies of America. It's no coincidence.
And then, of course, there is your torrid ongoing love affair with the theocrats of Iran.....
Yea, we know, the more anti-American regimes the better
Ever spoken to an Israeli who fought against the Egyptians in the Yom Kipper war ?
No, but I spoke with a few dozen Egyptians. I was in Egypt in '84 and we trained the Egyptian army by breaking down the Yom Kippur War and showing where Egypt made mistakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nzrugby
One of my neighbors fought in the Yom Kipper and he was saying up to Brigade level Leadership the Egyptians fought well.
He had three tanks knocked out that he was commanding and twice he was the only survivor.
As he was saying to me, if the Arabs were that useless why did Israel bury two thousand men in total.
Yes he has heard the myths that the Syrians and Egyptians all turned an ran as soon as they saw a Israeli Centurion, as he said, funny how many tanks they lost to blokes running away.
That isn't a myth, it is just something that is grotesquely misunderstood.
Because the Israelis purchased mostly British and US military hardware, it was erroneously assumed that Israeli war-fighting was in the style of the US/UK, which is known as Western War-Fighting.
Likewise, because Egypt and many of the so called "Arab" countries purchased Soviet/Russian hardware, it was falsely assumed that they fought using the Soviet style of warfare.
The results of the various conflicts incorrectly led many in the West to assume without any basis in reality that the US/UK style of war-fighting was superior to that of the Soviets.
What the Yom Kippur War (and an intense review of all other "Arab-Israeli" conflicts) proved beyond any reasonable doubt was that Western War-Fighting (US/UK style) was heavily flawed.
In reality, the Israelis were not using the US/UK style, they were using a blend of Wehrmacht/Soviet tactics.
In reality, the "Arabs" were using the US/UK Western style.
So, in accordance with the US/UK western style, the Jordanian commander ordered his units to withdraw to take the high ground -- standard operating procedure in the US/UK style of fighting -- upon the approach of Israeli tanks. The Jordanian commander, lacking proper intelligence and failing to probe, wrongly assumed those takes were the lead elements of another Israeli tank brigade.
They were not.
If the Jordanians/Syrians had been using Soviet tactics like everyone falsely assumed, then the correct course of action for the Jordanian commander would have been to send a reinforced mechanized infantry company to pin the Israeli tanks, and then by-passed the Israeli tanks with his main force and proceed south toward Jerusalem, since Soviet style warfare is "objective oriented" and not "seize land -- consolidate -- hold -- reinforce -- advance -- seize land -- consolidate -- hold -- reinforce -- advance" -- continue ad nauseum ad infinitum.
Had he done that, he would have captured Jerusalem, since there was nothing between those half-dozen or so Israeli tanks and Jerusalem.
This revelation led to a total panic in the US Army and they frantically began looking at how the Soviets actually fought -- and they did that by interviewing Wehrmacht officers in Germany who fought against the Soviets (in the eastern territory -- DDR -- US Consulate personnel in Berlin were sent out to interview Wehrmacht officers there).
That led to the creation of the AirLand Battle 2000 doctrine which was formulated in 1978 and final doctrines completed in 1983-84 for implementation with Division '86 in in 1986.
I was assigned to TRADOC in 1984 and worked on the RACO doctrines for AirLand Battle 2000 and that's how I ended up in Egypt training their army.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwruckman
Iran was the first nation in the Middle East to dispose of an authoritarian US puppet and replace it with a government that has the respect and support of a genune majority of its people. In 1978 they sent the Shah packing along with his American trained and supported secret police called SAVAK. So in a sense they don't have to go next and they are a real becon of hope for the peoples of the Middle East. America can huff and puff all it wants. Iran has the courage to spit a big luggie in America's face.
People don't stop to think that sometimes such actions are necessary because it is the only way possible to prevent US interference in the internal and domestic affairs of a country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamontnow
You're totally off the wall. You're a hater of America, and a lover of oppressors.
So, what, you have secret shrine to the Shah hidden your closet?
You and the goofy Brits caused this to happen.
You stole the oil and wealth from Iran and the Iranian people, which is hardly the actions of a benevolent country and certainly not the actions of a "Christian nation."
You could have done like the Chinese are doing now where ever they go. You could have split the oil profits 50-50 and ensured that the money was reinvested in the infrastructure of Iran while simultaneously offering economic and political guidance without interfering in the internal affairs of Iran. You had 60+ years to create a stable democracy, and you did nothing.
When Prime Minister Massedeq nationalized the oil fields, which was his right under Iranian law, under US law, under British law, and under international law, you tried three times to murder him, and having failed three times, you tried him in a kangaroo court for treason.
There was no "Islamic fundamentalism." You created that. You started the fire and fanned the flames and now your mad because the fire you started is burning out of control (in your warped view).
There can be no doubt that your foreign and economic policies are total failures.
And yet you continue with the same policies. What was it Einstein said about Insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting different results?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
Don't you recall the brutal suppression of student protesters?
I recall the suppression, but the word "brutal" is highly subjective. Perhaps it is "brutal" to you, but people in other countries would not see it as such.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
You don't get it, our primary concern is the US. Iran is an enemy of the US, not because I say so, but because they say so.
North Korea is your "enemy" too, and what are you doing about that? nothing, but then North Korea doesn't have oil or natural gas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
Either it will defend all theocracies (as you are wont to do)...
If you support self-determination, then you must defend theocracies.
If you don't support self-determination, and obviously you don't, then should your government be toppled and other countries force a form of a government on you, you cannot complain, because that would make you a hypocrite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
or we start trying to transform them starting with those that threaten our national interest.
That's extremely open ended. So if O Canada! decides not sell oil or natural gas to the US, that would threaten your national interest. Are you going to invade O Canada! and overthrow their government?
Will Israel's last non-U.S. Ally, Jordan, Fall Next?
Are there any indications of widspread discontent in Jordan? From what I've heard over the years, Jordan is one of the more progressive Arab states and the king is popular with the people there.
And this has what to do with my post, which wasn't about the capability of Israels former opponents (hell Hezzbollah did a little butt kicking recently) but rather the chorus of doom, gloom and horror that has surrounded recent discussions. Of course no one seems to want to consider that without the propped up support from Egypt, Israel may now have to get serious about negotiating a settlement with the Palestinians, because nothing insures Israel's security like a peace agreement with its neighbors. None of whom, I might add, have been chomping at the bit for another war.
The Yom Kipppr War or the Ramadan War (1973) is an example of how small scale weapons can fight a much better armed force of a superior enemy. Israel used BlitzKrieg tactics based on air superiotity, air ground attacks and a armored -mechanized ground force. In 1970 after the air battle between Israel and Egypt over the Bar Lev line (fortified line Israel built along the Suez Canal. The USSR suppled a SAM missile umbrella (SA2 and SA3) that extended over the canal zone and well into the Sinai.
The Soviets also gave Egypt small rocket powered anti-armor systems with shaped charges. These missiles could be fielded by as few as two soldiers and were devastating to tanks and any mechanized vehicle. These missiles also do a number on fortified positions and bunkers. These missiles gave the Egyptians the confidence to launch operation Badar to win back the Canal from Israel. When the Israelis sent the IDF Airforces to smash the Egyption formations on the west bank of the canal, and the bridgeheads established by the Egyptian Army they got a horrible surprise. The SAMs decimated them and the attempt to save the Bar Lev line failed. By the end of the first week Israels attempt to use IDF armor to push the Egyptians back was faltering and The Egyptians were driving to Mitla Pass and El Arish. Israelis battle with Suria was just as despirate with the IDF struggling to keep the Syrians from reaching the Jordan River and pushing into Northern Israel. What saved Israel. The Miracle of the big white airpanes called C-5s. The Americans stripped Army, Marine and Air Force units to supply Israel with the state of the art weapons to replace IDF losses. Israel also got anti-SAM systems and anti-radiation missiles to destroy Egyptian and Syrian SAMs and radars. We also went on nuclear alert to convey a message to the USSR not to send weapons (possibly nuclear) or Red Army forces to counter what we were doing to support Israel. The IDF added talent and pure guts and within a week had driven the Syrians off the Golan and were driving to the outskirts of Damacus. In the South the Ariel Sharon drove a tank division between Egypts two armies and crossed the Suez canal where he destroyed the SAM missile umbrella and trapped the Egyptian army. There was no significant Egyptian force between Sharon and Cairo and he could have occupied West Cairo and the International Airport. This was what we call Check and Mate!
In the 1980 I worked with an Israeli scientist who drove one of Sharon's tanks and was a participant in all this. Even though he was in his 40s in the mid-1980s. He was still a Col. in IDF Intelligence.
It's questionable, and certainly often-questioned, whether the Iranian government has majority support. It's hard to argue, in either case, that's it's a pretty rotten government. While I share your contempt for US policy, and the people who have a vested interest in creating an Islamist boogeyman, let's not supplement it with indifference for the actual results for normal people in Egypt.
Iran like most 3rd world nations has a relatively developed and westernized capital which in Iran's case is Teheran. It also has a vast hinterland of small towns and villages who do not enjoy the luxuries of Teheran and do not enjoy the schooling and were largely ignored by the Shah and his regime. Iranians in the villages out number the people of Teheran by about 3 to one. These are the backbone of the Islamic Republic and are the people who support the Ayatolla Khatnami and Amadi-Nejad. The US media makes a grave mistake in thinking that discord by the elite in Teheran speaks for the majority of Iranians or has traction in rural Iran..
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Will Israel's last non-U.S. Ally, Jordan, Fall Next?
