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I disagree. In today's economy, for example, migrant workers paid $2.00/hour certainly benefits the end user of the products (marginally) who get cheaper lettuce, etc., but the true benefit is felt by the farm owner. The rest of society has to shoulder the intangible costs of profit making by the farmer (thousands per year in school enrollment fees for a migrant's children, healthcare, etc.).
Considering the hundreds of billions+ $, lives lost, wars fought and social and continuing economic "costs" and legacy of the slave system, I'd say any "benefits" have been erased (or at least severely diminished) by now.
I sometimes wonder if slavery wasn't less economically viable than paying prevailing wages would have been. For a lot of slavers it was probably an ego thing.
Hmmm...i'd say that your first point is fair, though i disagree mildly. But you're spot on when you say that the benefits have been erased or severly diminished. Don't see how one can argue with that. But humans are given limited foresight....
That said, i doubt that the children of the direct beneficiaries of non-compensation and undercompensation are complaining about "diminished benefits." But for you and i, any benefit has certainly diminished, if it ever existed for us in the first place (it certainly didn't for me).
On your second point, i can't disagree. Slavery was probably VERY economically viable at the time for the slaveowner, etc, but the legacy of it has certainly been very expensive! That's for damn sure.
I think its stupid to start separating black americans from black immigrants.
Don't tell me, tell the American Blacks, because they're the ones who are doing it.
You can see this more at college campuses. American Blacks discriminate against and ostracize African Blacks. It's pretty sad when "African-American" student groups won't let Africans join or participate.
You can see it in the work-place as well. I used to supervise production at a meat-packing plant and 5 of my line leaders were from Senegal or Ghana. Why? Well, um, they spoke English (without cursing). And they could write English, which is important when you're filling out your paperwork at the end of the shift. And they showed up for work, every day and on time, and they worked the entire 10 hours. They were motivated and eager to learn, always asking how to do things faster, better or easier.
And they were friendly. We used to sit around in the break room at lunch talking about football (the real football) and they liked Hagi and Dan Petrescu (they're Romanians who were playing for Man United) and the World Cup and stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonythetuna
Many American blacks are flat out jealous that most African black immigrants to the U.S.A. can and do get good jobs as a result of being better educated and more intelligent than most American blacks.
On the other hand, these same American blacks hate the African black immigrants to the U.S.A. because most of the immigrants actually can speak English properly and their men rarely abandon their own children.
I think fear is a big part of it.
African immigrant groups are hugely successful in the US. You can even look at Haitians and Jamaicans, who by the way insist on being called Haitians and Jamaicans and not African Americans.
American Blacks were doing it and getting better in spite of the many barriers. The barriers were being lifted, albeit at a snail's pace, but they were being removed nonetheless.
When the Democrats created the Grotesque Society, they totally destroyed the Black Family, and forever created a Dependency Class totally reliant on tax-payer "entitlements."
That impacted education, because children need a stable home environment, which is exactly what the Grotesque Society denies.
Part of the fear is that white, yellow and brown Americans can't tell the difference between Black Americans and Black Africans, and successful Black Africans (and Jamaicans and Haitians) lead people to believe that the "entitlement" programs are no longer necessary and need to be cut off.
And that would be the best thing that could ever happen, because it would force Black Americans to back-up, re-group and start doing it (the right way) and that would go a long way to solving a lot of problems.
Don't tell me, tell the American Blacks, because they're the ones who are doing it.
You can see this more at college campuses. American Blacks discriminate against and ostracize African Blacks. It's pretty sad when "African-American" student groups won't let Africans join or participate.
You can see it in the work-place as well. I used to supervise production at a meat-packing plant and 5 of my line leaders were from Senegal or Ghana. Why? Well, um, they spoke English (without cursing). And they could write English, which is important when you're filling out your paperwork at the end of the shift. And they showed up for work, every day and on time, and they worked the entire 10 hours. They were motivated and eager to learn, always asking how to do things faster, better or easier.
And they were friendly. We used to sit around in the break room at lunch talking about football (the real football) and they liked Hagi and Dan Petrescu (they're Romanians who were playing for Man United) and the World Cup and stuff.
I think fear is a big part of it.
African immigrant groups are hugely successful in the US. You can even look at Haitians and Jamaicans, who by the way insist on being called Haitians and Jamaicans and not African Americans.
American Blacks were doing it and getting better in spite of the many barriers. The barriers were being lifted, albeit at a snail's pace, but they were being removed nonetheless.
When the Democrats created the Grotesque Society, they totally destroyed the Black Family, and forever created a Dependency Class totally reliant on tax-payer "entitlements."
That impacted education, because children need a stable home environment, which is exactly what the Grotesque Society denies.
Part of the fear is that white, yellow and brown Americans can't tell the difference between Black Americans and Black Africans, and successful Black Africans (and Jamaicans and Haitians) lead people to believe that the "entitlement" programs are no longer necessary and need to be cut off.
And that would be the best thing that could ever happen, because it would force Black Americans to back-up, re-group and start doing it (the right way) and that would go a long way to solving a lot of problems.
One really has to wonder why so many are hell-bent on creating an imaginary schism between Black Americans and Black immigrants.
I know of no Black American who has an issue with any Black immigrants. On the contrary, I have quite a number of Black friends who are either immigrants or the children of immigrants. Many of whom have married Black Americans.
When the Democrats created the Grotesque Society, they totally destroyed the Black Family, and forever created a Dependency Class totally reliant on tax-payer "entitlements."
The Great Society reduced poverty in America by 35% from 1961 to 1969. It's what happened AFTER that that devasted many Black American family including the deindustrialization of America that started in the mid to late 1970's, which wiped out millions of middle class industrial jobs that adversely affected Black American men without college educations. Middle class flight from cities to the suburbds which decimated the tax base of many cities and severly curtailed funding for education and other services. A severe reduction in funding to inner city programs by the Reagan Administration in the 1980's, a crack cocaine epidemic all played their role.
What's ironic is NOBODY especially a signficant number of White Americans never really gave a damn when this was happening.
The whole issue "Family" brings forth another issue. What exactly is the definition of "Family" anyway these days with same-sex marriage, the likelihood that person will experience at least one divorce in their lives and other social factors which currently pervade America?
You don't have to believe me, but if it wasn't for my ancestors and others who fought in the war many of you would not be here.
Your ancestors here before mines Good one.
I don't believe you, but that's neither here nor there. What i do know is that YOU didn't fight in the war. So i hope you aren't looking for any gratitude cuz you sure aren't getting any from this way.
And yea, i'd be more than willing to bet that my earliest American ancestor got here well before yours did.
Don't tell me, tell the American Blacks, because they're the ones who are doing it.
You can see this more at college campuses. American Blacks discriminate against and ostracize African Blacks. It's pretty sad when "African-American" student groups won't let Africans join or participate.
You can see it in the work-place as well. I used to supervise production at a meat-packing plant and 5 of my line leaders were from Senegal or Ghana. Why? Well, um, they spoke English (without cursing). And they could write English, which is important when you're filling out your paperwork at the end of the shift. And they showed up for work, every day and on time, and they worked the entire 10 hours. They were motivated and eager to learn, always asking how to do things faster, better or easier.
And they were friendly. We used to sit around in the break room at lunch talking about football (the real football) and they liked Hagi and Dan Petrescu (they're Romanians who were playing for Man United) and the World Cup and stuff
It's just ignorance on both parties because instead of embracing each other, we judge. It has alot to do with the difference in culture. I don't hate Africans. Some Black Americans kind of look down on Africans and some Africans look down on Black Americans. Vice Versa.
Well African-American does not refer to any African immigrants as the term has a distinguished meaning. The Ethiopian doctor in the article is Ethiopian-American the same way that somehow who immigrates from Milan is Italian-American. The Irish, the Swedish, and the Polish immigrants are not lumped into the same category, so why you would lump someone from Ghana in with someone from Zimbabwe is beyond me. I doubt that you will find many Nigerians hanging out with Somalians and vice versa...
As for white "Africans", they are about as African as blacks in England are European. So if you start referring to Africans simply as people who are born in the continent, then by the same token, third generation blacks living in London would be "European". Can't have double standards now can we?
Your first bolded post-- what exactly does caucasian mean to you? The white amorphous blob means what exactly? "Whitey" means what? Which double standard are you talking about? For lack of imagination you can call me white or ecru or whatever. It has no meaning to me beyond the nonsense meanings anyone gave it. If you put yourself in the business of elevating the stature of white to something astronomical in your mind I can only point out you're out of touch with reality. Quite literally, it's all in your head.
Second bolded post-- English and European is a sensibility/ custom more than it is a bloodline. Black Londoners consider themselves English and I do too. Same with Africa. Same with Georgia and California in a way, but held together by a common sensibility called American. These other parsings sorting out negligible labels is retarded. I am female. I am not a Female-American. My ancestry hails from northern Europe. That does not make me an Irish-Polish-English-Swedish-Lithuanian-German American. Each of them sacrificed elements of their old ways to come here into a new way. That new way wasn't realized entirely from the beginning and we've had growing pains the whole time. The fact that slaves brought here did not willingly make those sacrifices is immaterial at this point because blacks living in America are free to stay or go, to be American or not. Those refusing to make that conscious choice to embrace their citizenship or abandon it have forged invisible chains for themselves.
Chinese Americans that are here for 3 generations aren't recognizable in their nation of origin. Italian Americans going on a tour of Italy see elements of themselves there, but they are no longer Italian. Not because I dictated this reality- ask the Italians. It's the same story when Jews visit Israel, when Irish descent visit Ireland. We are now (collectively) a different animal for better or worse. American mutts. Obama is a mutt just like the rest of us, much as that pains anyone to hear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calipoppy
The term "African American" is a collective to reference the descendents of African slaves in America. Since our ancestors were stripped of their individual culture and (tribal, regional) identity over 300 years ago, it is therefore impossible for Black Americans today to reference the specific nations (and/or tribes) of origin in Africa as a German or Irish descendant would be able to do.
Also, Black Americans are not able to simply state "I'm just an American" and have that alone be our "identity" because we are set apart based on our color by many in this society.
I have black friends who strongly disagree. They resent being defined as slaves just because their ancestors went through trials. That's not the value of their ancestors to them.
I didn't 'set' you or anyone anywhere. Many of you set yourselves apart physically, and especially in your minds. If you prefer it that way and blame others for your choice, that's not American at all. That's a whiner. When that whiner is William Buckley claiming Harvard discriminated against him because he's Catholic, I called him a whiner. If something he was doing misrepresented Catholicism or Christendom their criticism had validity.
You really need to believe slavery originated in Europe? History says otherwise. Lie to yourself forever but self inflicted wounds does not make you a victim of anything but yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calibro1
As probably one of the VERY few Africans posting (my dad is White and my mom is Ivorian), I simply state I'm Ivoirian American. Our good friend is White from Cote d'Ivoire, she would never say that she is African-American. First off, her parents immigrated in the 1900s from France. She considers herself French Ivorian. Lebanese people from Cote d'Ivoire would pick "White" in the US.
I've encountered very little hatred from African Americans. The only little bit was from one kid who was a douche. I'm very suburban Californian in the way I act. The kid, having just moved to the suburbs from the inner city, thought that only White people act that way...esp. not people from Africa.
This problem is really one for the older generation of both sides. Most young Africans do not face discrimination from African Americans.
Except for those whose parents handicap their children teaching them that I've spent my life conspiring against them. That would be your inner city kid with the chip on his shoulder. This isn't original. This same book is written in Irish and Rowanda history. Right and wrong has no color. Neither does common decency or self respect.
Will Smith wants nothing to do with the old noise dictating the future of his children. He set himself and his children apart for the right reasons, although I'm sure some inner city whiners will try to drag him down. Smart man. The best father anyone could hope to have. Looks like a proud American to me. Mystery of mysteries, Sidney Poitier lost no melanin for anyone to recognize his dignity, talent, or intelligence. His conduct & high ideals earned him the respect and admiration of women. Isn't that bizarre? What basis are women discriminating against all those other males so different from Poitier?
An African American is someone from the culture that resulted from the transaction of slavery. An African immigrant of true African ancestry - or especially his or her American-born children- can be assimilated into this
culture. So can an immigrant from another part of the diaspora or their children. President Obama and Gen. Colin Powell are perfect examples of this.
The better examples are traveling up and down the carribean chain and noting the disparity between which cultures thrived and which failed. There is a vast world of difference between Jamaica and Haiti if your eyes are keen. Which blacks in America have succeeded, and which have spiraled backwards to something lesser than even the status of a slave. How many addicts and prostitutes are in America? Forget white/ black/ hispanic/ oriental-- there they all are, and they've done it to themselves one way or another. It's against the law and they break the law for their 'right' to abuse themselves. Can you solve this? Because if you can you'll be solving it not just for the black community, but for humanity at large.
I'm not saying these things to make light of slavery in history. No contest, just because slavery was abolished didn't mean injustices weren't ongoing perpetrated by unamerican citizens. Burning down a man's business because he was black--- wrong is wrong. The reign of terror in the south did not discriminate based solely on color, but based on sympathies. More white blood than black has been shed over this issue if you want to measure pint for pint.
Race aside why don't I illustrate the point in terms of gender. You're male, and if I speak to you in a language/ treatment that declares I hold you personally accountable for 2,000 +yrs of oppression perpetrated upon womankind, there isn't much for you to say, is there? You didn't write the rules and neither did I. It's how we treat each other today that counts. It's the version of common decency we share that makes a community. If you or I are unwilling to recognize there's another human being before our eyes, there's nothing worthy of discussion. Solve the problem for women and you'll solve it for the black community.
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Good one.
