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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanrene
Except...that never happened. In fact, the Senate investigation, the world's intelligence agencies, the UN, UN inspectors, Europe, Arab nations, etc, etc thought he had WMD as well.
No lies, just incorrect intelligence.
Here's Rummy, telling us that Powell was not "duped" or anything else.
Yeah, I remember about our soldiers rolling into Iraq, closing in on Bagdad, having to don those chemical weapons suits....don't you all remember that?
Now, I wonder why they would do that if they didn't think he had chemical weapons.
I challenge anyone who still defends the Bush/Cheney administration's actions RE:Iraq to watch the PBS documentary Bush's War and refute (or for those so inclined:refudiate ) the points it makes.
Asked if the United States would not have invaded if the administration hadn't believed Iraq had the weapons of mass destruction, Rumsfeld said: "I think that's probably right."
He's full of crap. Invading Iraq was always in the cards, because it was always part of the US geo-strategic plan. He just fears how history will treat him.
You should have done your goddamn homework and made sure before invading. The fact that one really bad source with his own agenda (Curveball) colored the intelligence material shows an embarrassing lack of professionalism.
I take it you also mean the world's intelligence agencies as well, because everyone thought he had them.
Alternately, you could have stopped and listened to the inspectors when they made it increasingly clear that the US intelligence information on WMD was so much crap.
You mean those same inspectors that were scouring the country for WMD just DAYS before the invasion? Those same inspectors that told the world Saddam was not cooperating with the inspections?
Rumsfeld is embodying the neocon way of handling mistakes - the one where you agree to take the responsibility, as long as nobody dares hint that some actual blame attaches to it, or - heaven forbid - that there should be consequences.
Consequences for incorrect information the world relied on is not a crime. But maybe we should take that same criteria of yours and apply to some things the current president has said.
I take it you also mean the world's intelligence agencies as well, because everyone thought he had them.
An oft-repeated half-truth. Most thought there was some stockpile of CW somewhere. (Most countries also disputed that this was a proper casus belli.) The massive nuclear program, the biological weaponry - that was highly disputed. (The UK officially supported anything the US said, of course. Blair would do anything to please Master.)
Remember the aluminum-tubes-of-Doom? Actual US experts in nuclear enrichment went on record as saying that they were completely unfit for the purpose. Yet the GWB administration found somebody willing to say they were usable, grabbed the statement that fit the narrative and kept using them as strong evidence of an Iraqi nuclear program. (They were for free-flight missile bodies.)
Curveball's German handlers warned the CIA that the intel might be bad.The US didn't care. Didn't fit the worldview.
There was a war to sell, and the GWB admin needed the US populace good and scared.
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You mean those same inspectors that were scouring the country for WMD just DAYS before the invasion? Those same inspectors that told the world Saddam was not cooperating with the inspections?
UNSCOM. And in the real world, outside Fox News, they reported a steady increase in cooperation - in march 2003, Blix reported "active and even proactive cooperation". Those inspectors who also told the world that the US intel was worthless. That they were sent off to sites that not only didn't hold any weapons, but couldn't. SCUD launching sites turned out to be barns - with doors that couldn't even take a SCUD launcher.
It was becoming increasingly clear that the US intelligence services knew squat about WMD in Iraq.
Not that it mattered, because the GWB administration clearly wanted their war. So after a platitude about "the smoking gun could be a mushroom cloud" the inspectors were pulled out and you got the war you itched for.
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Consequences for incorrect information the world relied on is not a crime.
People who started aggressive wars used to hang. Could we at least muster some contempt for the people who mismanaged their responsibilities to such an extreme degree?
Well, Donald, shouldn't you have made really, really sure that there were WMD's before you go off and spend a trillion dollars and waste a hundred thousand souls by invading a country that had virtually nothing to do with the 'War on Terror?"
Maybe you should have had something better than a witness, a forged document, and some aluminum tubes as reason to, ya know, send our country to war???
A$$hole.
Yeh, they should NOT have believed any of the intelligence gathered during the clinton admin.
I think you have the facts a little skewed. The world thought he had them and that would include the democrats in congress as well.
I'm talking about the UN inspectors, on the ground, days before the invasion, claiming saddam was not cooperating, that he was hiding crap.
If they didn't think he had WMD, why in the world were the scouring the country for WMD?
Why in the world were our soldiers decked out in their hazmat suits going into Bagdad.
You'll just have to accept, because that is what the evidence shows, that everyone thought he had WMD. The mistake was in the intelligence....period.
BTW, that intelligence goes back to Clinton too. You remember him, don't you? He, along with the dem congress wanted regime change in Iraq and swore up and down he had WMD.
I think you have the facts a little skewed. The world thought he had them and that would include the democrats in congress as well.
I'm talking about the UN inspectors, on the ground, days before the invasion, claiming saddam was not cooperating, that he was hiding crap.
If they didn't think he had WMD, why in the world were the scouring the country for WMD?
Why in the world were our soldiers decked out in their hazmat suits going into Bagdad.
You'll just have to accept, because that is what the evidence shows, that everyone thought he had WMD. The mistake was in the intelligence....period.
BTW, that intelligence goes back to Clinton too. You remember him, don't you? He, along with the dem congress wanted regime change in Iraq and swore up and down he had WMD.
Wonder of wonders - for the most part I agree with you in this case.
The fact is most countries in the world thought that Saddam had the WMD's - and this is true of BOTH the incoming Bush Administration AND the outgoing Clinton Administration.
Were there voices out there who said "No he doesn't"?
Of course there were - but most sources believed he DID have WMD's.
There is a VERY GOOD reason for this - Saddam WANTED the world to think he still had WMD's. The potential threat to USE those weapons was one of the tools he used to cling to power, it was one of the threats he used to deter the Iranians from invading Iraq, it was one of the tools he used to impress his generals and bolster his standing in the Arab World (ie that he could thumb his nose at the US & get away with it). It was ALL a collosal BLUFF on his part - helped along with little hints planted in intercepted Iraqi transmissions deliberately sent from Iraqi sites JUST INSPECTED by the UN inspectors that said things like "Can you believe they missed them AGAIN?"
I don't for ONE MINUTE blame Bush for BELIEVING that the WMDs existed. He was no more to blame for thinking that than CLINTON was.
What I DO blame Bush for was his CHOICE of action to take to DEAL WITH it. The fact is, there was NO REAL NEED to invade. Regardless of whether or not Saddam had the WMD's the fact is, he was pretty much boxed in the corner & wasn't in a position to do ANYTHING with them EVEN IF HE HAD THEM.
I forgive Bush for mistakenly BELIEVING that Saddam had WMD's - BUT the responsibility for the action taken (regardless of WHY he did it) - when other options (including just continuing as we had been doing) were available - still falls to HIM. The fact is, the BUCK stopped with him - and he BLEW it.
Ken
Last edited by LordBalfor; 02-21-2011 at 03:00 PM..
I think you have the facts a little skewed. The world thought he had them and that would include the democrats in congress as well.
What is "them"? Massive biological and nuclear programs? Highly disputed. Caches of chemical weapons? That was pretty much assumed.
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I'm talking about the UN inspectors, on the ground, days before the invasion, claiming saddam was not cooperating, that he was hiding crap.
Yes. UNMOVIC. (I said UNSCOM above, my mistake.) Led by Hans Blix. Who stated that cooperation from Iraqi authorities was increasing, using the words "active, even proactive".
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If they didn't think he had WMD, why in the world were the scouring the country for WMD?
The extent of Iraqi WMD was what they were there to find out. Nobody thought that US intelligence was that bad, or interpreted to support a foregone conclusion.
It was UNMOVICs task to check on Iraqi compliance. As it turns out, they didn't find anything of notice, because Iraq basically was in compliance.
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Why in the world were our soldiers decked out in their hazmat suits going into Bagdad.
Because the Pentagon believed in their own BS? Because it would look weird if you'd sold a war on massive quantities of WMD and then not deck your soldiers out in NBC gear? Because they tried to engineer your exact reaction?
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You'll just have to accept, because that is what the evidence shows, that everyone thought he had WMD.
There was a sh.tload of debate on the extent of his programs. US/UK insisted on major development and production facilities for both nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. Most others found that doubtful.
Quote:
The mistake was in the intelligence....period.
The administration deliberately skewed their interpretation. The aluminum tubes being exhibit A. And when given a chance to correct their assessment - UNMOVIC, to recap - they stopped the program short, because it didn't deliver the results they needed.
They didn't look at intelligence report and conclude, reluctantly, that war with Iraq was a bitter necessity. They looked though intelligence reports to find supporting evidence to build a propaganda case for the Iraq war. Every action they took, at every step, point to that.
Yes I do.
I have NO DOUBT that Bush & Rummy REALLY BELIEVED Saddam had WMDs.
Why shouldn't I beleive it? It's not like he was ALONE in that belief - Clinton thought Saddam had them as well.
They thought he had them because Saddam WANTED them to think that - and in Saddam's position it was VERY EASY to make them think that.
The administration deliberately skewed their interpretation. The aluminum tubes being exhibit A. And when given a chance to correct their assessment - UNMOVIC, to recap - they stopped the program short, because it didn't deliver the results they needed.
They didn't look at intelligence report and conclude, reluctantly, that war with Iraq was a bitter necessity. They looked though intelligence reports to find supporting evidence to build a propaganda case for the Iraq war. Every action they took, at every step, point to that.
They didn't do anything different than US intelligence sources did before Pearl Harbor - they interpreted the data the way they EXPECTED the data to look. Nothing new or devious or political about that at all. It's one of the cardinal mistakes ANY intelligence agency and/or administration can make - they see what they expect to see. It's a phenomina called "What you expect is what you will see." Taking advantage of this phenominon is what "Magic" and slight of hand is all about.
It's a HUGE mistake intelligence makes all too often.
The Bush Administration was not alone in making that mistake - and it was not the first time the US had made it.
Ken
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) the points it makes.
