Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
We need to get to the core of the problem, treating the symptoms won't end our debt based money problem, or our lack of liability among corporations or our government granted privileged class, it just takes the same mess but makes all the numbers look bigger, no one would actually get ahead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newonecoming2
What do you want to bet that the current economic depression is the intended consequence of someone’s plan? Do you remember the memo in the video you posted where the bankers called for an economic crisis in 1894? Do you think that the popping bubble we have now is an accident?.
Yes and no. The underlying core problems do cause depressions and inflation but our demographic and technology cycles do cause ups and downs. I have seen the demographic issue coming for years, knowing the timing is hard though. The underlying problems amplify what would have been a normal cyclical slow down. If we didn't have all the debt and government spending it would not have been that bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newonecoming2
Stopping the plans of people that don’t have the interest of the bulk of the people in the United States of America at hart is a good thing for the bulk of the people in the US to be engaged in..
I agree but not with the carpet bomb approach, too much collateral damage. We need a strategic strike against the government granted privileged classes I have described. Take that out and all of the other issues work out a lot easier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by newonecoming2
All it will take to end this economic mess quickly is, offering money for people to volunteer, with the rate of pay high enough to put upward pressure on wages, with the wages having a floor of about $30 per hr.
Paying for this with money made up out of thin air, debt free money.
Debt free money will help but as I have said, this is also a demographic slow down, that will take years to work through. High pay won't do a thing for a boomer; they will just save it and not spend it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW
Maybe we should declare the world is bankrupt and start over. How would the new money be distributed and how would assets be valued? I suggest starting with the workers owning their factories and hiring the executives instead of the previous stockholders and financiers. That would be interesting to watch as all the previous dividends and profits that support the ruling financial aristocrats simply disappear.
I am sympathetic to canceling debt, it worked well in history. The problem is that most debt is not held by the king, it is held by pensions, retirees and other countries. The national debt is easy, pay off all bonds with debt free government issued currency, everyone (but the bankers) are happy.
The problem is with all of the other debt. Much of that is held by individuals, pensions, retirees etc. That is a tricky situation.
I am not against people who receive benefits from corporate profits, I am against it is they receive those things due to government granted protection and privilege. We can't carpet bomb this mess, we need to do it right by focusing on the core problems, government granted and protected privilege, not people who are just working hard and growing a business.
Rising a minimum wage produces greater economic harm than good. It provides overall economic deadweight loss, even if it is raising the per dollar return to the consumer (see the graphic below). Raising the minimum wage is deciding to harm the overall economy for the short-term benefit of the worker. OP - are you OK with that?
We need to get to the core of the problem, treating the symptoms won't end our debt based money problem, or our lack of liability among corporations or our government granted privileged class, it just takes the same mess but makes all the numbers look bigger, no one would actually get ahead.
The core of the problem is outlined in the Video you posted. Did you look at the way the banks divided or tried too, the country on divisive topics so that the other side wouldn’t get their act together and effectively appose what the banks wanted? That is the core of the problem is that the plutocracy is on one side and we are on the other divided in half between dems and republs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi
Yes and no. The underlying core problems do cause depressions and inflation but our demographic and technology cycles do cause ups and downs. I have seen the demographic issue coming for years, knowing the timing is hard though. The underlying problems amplify what would have been a normal cyclical slow down. If we didn't have all the debt and government spending it would not have been that bad.
I can see what you are looking at. That is on top of the long cycle, peak in the 1870’ then in the 1920 then in the 1980’~2000. We are timed for another great depression. This one should make all others before it look small.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi
I agree but not with the carpet bomb approach, too much collateral damage. We need a strategic strike against the government granted privileged classes I have described. Take that out and all of the other issues work out a lot easier.
Getting close enough to even touch then is the problem. The carpet bomb approach can be sold to everyone. The lack of money I circulation is the problem (with the slow economy). The cause of that is the collapsing debt bubble.
The unemployment rate is stated as something like 10% I read an article that said that in Nov. of 2007 it was 4.7% the pay out was I forget the number. It said what the payout for unemployment was in Nov. of 2010. I divided that number by the first number and then multiplied the number by the unemployment rate in 2007 and the result was over 17%. We are paying out for an unemployment rate of 17% Now someone is either taking the difference for them selves or the amount of payout per person has gone way up or the unemployment rate is almost twice what it is reported to be.
When you are up against this the carpet bombing approach is the only one that looks promising.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi
Debt free money will help but as I have said, this is also a demographic slow down, that will take years to work through.
There is a bit of the demographic slowdown thing going on. And it will take time. But, we can be going through it at 5% unemployment instead of over 25% unemployment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi
High pay won't do a thing for a boomer; they will just save it and not spend it.
As long as that is happening in credit unions then it will help our balance of trade. Also high pay will service our national debt. China has the demographic the even worse than we do is it stopping them from growing really fast?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq
Rising a minimum wage produces greater economic harm than good.
Taken in isolation in a text book sense you are correct. In the real world we are having an economic depression caused by the falling prices of houses. This means that we already have an excess of labor on the tune of 25%. So in the lets call it medium term we would see an economic contraction. In the longer term we would see economic expansion because the falling price of houses would tend to be reversed. Also referring to your graph. If you print a bunch of money and put it in the hands of the consumers with out an increase in the amount of debt you should see an expansion of the labor market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq
It provides overall economic deadweight loss, even if it is raising the per dollar return to the consumer (see the graphic below). Raising the minimum wage is deciding to harm the overall economy for the short-term benefit of the worker. OP - are you OK with that?
Unless something else is causing more harm than the dead weight loss. And that something is the falling prices of housing.
Using your graph as a reference point the downward sloping line has been pushed to the left and downward by the collapsing real estate bubble. Pushing the floor higher will also push the line to the right and higher. It will help if you print a bunch of money and put it in the consumers pocket with out it being converted into debt first.
Using your graph as a reference point the downward sloping line has been pushed to the left and downward by the collapsing real estate bubble. Pushing the floor higher will also push the line to the right and higher. It will help if you print a bunch of money and put it in the consumers pocket with out it being converted into debt first.
um...do you understand what deadweight loss is?
You can either choose to have a minimum wage and lower the ceiling for potential societal economic growth (aka, deadweight loss) but give people a slightly higher wage, or allow the market to set a lower per person wage but raise the ceiling for potential growth.
That isn't a theory or an opinion...that is the basic mathematics of economics...
Because the worlds monetary base did a 3.3333X over the last decade, with the printed money going through the US economy, and we need to up the minimum wage just to keep up with inflation.
You can either choose to have a minimum wage and lower the ceiling for potential societal economic growth (aka, deadweight loss) but give people a slightly higher wage, or allow the market to set a lower per person wage but raise the ceiling for potential growth.
Or you can cause wage inflation. If you push AD with cash for everyone at the same time as you up the minimum wage then you don’t lose employment you get wage inflation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq
That isn't a theory or an opinion...that is the basic mathematics of economics...
It is based on the curve not moving around on you. The curve isn’t fixed in one place it is there based on a number of factors mess with those and it doesn’t stay in one place.
As I said. The dead weight loss is currently higher than it needs to be because of the collapsing real estate bubble. Fix the bubble and you get economic growth.
no moatary base does not equal inflation. But the cost of living calculator dumped fuel and food so it doesn't really calculate the true cost of living. Why?
But if you up the monetary base and keep the worlds economy the same size you will get inflation approximately the same as the increase in the base. The printed money went into the rising price of houses. $7T printed and $7T lost in the popping bubble. When that money starts moving we should see quite a bit of inflation.
Rising a minimum wage produces greater economic harm than good. It provides overall economic deadweight loss, even if it is raising the per dollar return to the consumer (see the graphic below). Raising the minimum wage is deciding to harm the overall economy for the short-term benefit of the worker. OP - are you OK with that?
Not sure where you got that but that is wrong. Minimum wage increases put more money in consumers hand for them to put back in the economy. Every time the Minimum Wage increases we hear people complain but nothing bad happens. States like Washington and Illinois have the highest minimum wages in the US but I have yet to hear of tons of business closing and the states doing poorly.
Or you should try to improve your skills so you can earn more without having to look with great sorrowful puppy eyes at the State to provide for you
So who would work at factories or serve food to your kid at their school cafeteria or process your flight at the airport? These jobs need people to do them.
We need to lower min wage to 3.50 per hour so the people who have no skills and no talent will not be getting overpaid.
The jobless rate would drop like a rock and the economy would be moving forward.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
