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Old 04-08-2011, 08:04 AM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,736,042 times
Reputation: 22474

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
I'm assuming there was no government 30 years ago and things changed suddenly?
The government didn't pay for a huge chunk of the population to have completely free health care and confiscate so much of the earnings of those who do pay.

The whole problem is - the entitlement programs especially Medicaid grow out of control. There are no natural constraints on food stamps, Medicaid and so on. Many more people are being added but fewer taxpayers having to pay for it all.
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,503,810 times
Reputation: 9619
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The government didn't pay for a huge chunk of the population to have completely free health care and confiscate so much of the earnings of those who do pay.

The whole problem is - the entitlement programs especially Medicaid grow out of control. There are no natural constraints on food stamps, Medicaid and so on. Many more people are being added but fewer taxpayers having to pay for it all.
exactly

back when hospitalization was the standard.. when you went for your annual check up you paid the cost of a visit..union and government forced insurance to expand to cover things that normally would have been part of your own responsibility..people became compacent thinking 'wow , they give me this for free'.....sorry but nothing in life is free

and we (the usa) would never be able to afford a full singlepayer system
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,837,761 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
The government didn't pay for a huge chunk of the population to have completely free health care and confiscate so much of the earnings of those who do pay.
When did that start?

Quote:
The whole problem is - the entitlement programs especially Medicaid grow out of control. There are no natural constraints on food stamps, Medicaid and so on. Many more people are being added but fewer taxpayers having to pay for it all.
Yeah, I get it that you hate poor people for not being able to afford something that not even America (that brags about being the richest country in the world) can't.

Health care is expensive because of for-profit approach to it. Why do you think the premiums have more than doubled since 2000? Do you think these costs don't affect Medicare and Medicaid?
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,503,810 times
Reputation: 9619
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
When did that start?

Yeah, I get it that you hate poor people for not being able to afford something that not even America (that brags about being the richest country in the world) can't.

Health care is expensive because of for-profit approach to it. Why do you think the premiums have more than doubled since 2000? Do you think these costs don't affect Medicare and Medicaid?
Quote:
Why do you think the premiums have more than doubled since 2000?
because actual COSTS have doubled

you understand when you pay a doctor $100, that its not $100 just going into the doctors pocket

he/she has to pay:
mortgage/rent
office help (nurse/receptionist/billing clerk)
supplies
ELECTRICAL BILL
taxes


you understand the AVERAGE hospital spends 430,000 dollars a MONTH on ELECTRICITY ALONE...that's 5,160,000 (5.1 million) a year just in electric costs...not to mention custodial costs, food costs, laundry costs, sanitation costs, staff costs, etc



get off your high horse..its not about profit (which every business NEEDS to make at least a little, otherwise they will shut thier doors)

you realize how many hospitals have GONE OUT OF BUSINESS because they cant make a profit enough to stay affloat...and the government is a good part of the problem
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,837,761 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
because actual COSTS have doubled

you understand when you pay a doctor $100, that its not $100 just going into the doctors pocket

he/she has to pay:
mortgage/rent
office help (nurse/receptionist/billing clerk)
supplies
ELECTRICAL BILL
taxes
Has YOUR income doubled? How have you survived? What went wrong in just 7-8 years that these necessities doubled?
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Old 04-08-2011, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,503,810 times
Reputation: 9619
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Has YOUR income doubled? How have you survived? What went wrong in just 7-8 years that these necessities doubled?
its not just the last 7-8 years

its since the 90's

and no most people salaries have not doubled

but housing tripled...a house that sold for 150k in 1995..sold for 500k in 2005 (now down to 400k)

look at coffee....its TRIPLE what it was in 2000

look at your electric bill..especially in 08 and toady...look at the rates or the additional 'fossel fuel surcharge'


come on ghost..I know you are not dumb...stop with the political-hackiness

look at the fed WANTING to keep inflation up around 5% (meaning the cost of everything will double in a 20 year span)
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,837,761 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
its not just the last 7-8 years

its since the 90's

and no most people salaries have not doubled

but housing tripled...a house that sold for 150k in 1995..sold for 500k in 2005 (now down to 400k)

look at coffee....its TRIPLE what it was in 2000

look at your electric bill..especially in 08 and toady...look at the rates or the additional 'fossel fuel surcharge'


come on ghost..I know you are not dumb...stop with the political-hackiness

look at the fed WANTING to keep inflation up around 5% (meaning the cost of everything will double in a 20 year span)
Give me something to read about in that direction. As for the rest, why does the excuse of higher cost apply only in the health care industry?
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,503,810 times
Reputation: 9619
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Give me something to read about in that direction. As for the rest, why does the excuse of higher cost apply only in the health care industry?
it doesnt

its becoming harder to afford many things for all people

a personal example...I make about 3 times what my father made at his highest level...and it is tougher for me to make ends meet that it was for him

look at the price of a car...a midsize chevy (say the nova) in 1970 was $2200.....today a midsize chevy is 20k or more

the value of the dollar is in the toilet
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia Area
1,720 posts, read 1,317,386 times
Reputation: 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
it doesnt

its becoming harder to afford many things for all people

a personal example...I make about 3 times what my father made at his highest level...and it is tougher for me to make ends meet that it was for him

look at the price of a car...a midsize chevy (say the nova) in 1970 was $2200.....today a midsize chevy is 20k or more

the value of the dollar is in the toilet
Yep!!!!! And going lower. Wait till QE3 LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea

Also the wages aren't there and if you compare that with inflation it just doesn't work.

In 1980, I had an entry level job as a sound engineer with a local independent TV station earning $5.00 per hour. One paycheck paid my rent and utilities and auto insurance and the other 3 paychecks each month were disposable income.

An entry level job today pays $8.50 to $10 per hour and even at $10 per hour it takes 2 paychecks to cover the cost of rent, utilities and auto insurance (and don't forget in 1980 $10 -- or two hours of work -- paid for 2 tickets to the cinema show, a tank full of gasoline and something to eat after the movie -- the cost of two movie tickets now is over $20).


You're right on!!!

GuyNTexas says IT ALL Here!!!!

Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
No. I'm really disagreeing with .. not missing your point. And those numbers don't tell a very accurate story, and the proof is demonstrated by the drop in net worth of middle income earners as their debt has increased significantly, while earnings have declined relative to inflation.

By most measurable data points, the middle income class has been dying a very slow, incremental death for 4 decades because the costs on high ticket items have increased more rapidly than the either the inflation rate or rates of increases in income. To further compound the problem, average income levels have failed to keep pace with the inflation rate itself. Much of this goes unnoticed because of it's slow incremental nature (like growing old). But if you are old enough, and still maintain your mental faculties, you can't be bull $hted into believing what you are trying to say here.

As just one example, in 1977, I bought a brand new Pontiac Trans Am for $5200. And since it was my first car purchase, I suspect I was clubbed like a baby seal (paid full MSRP), as I simply asked how much, and said OK (later I learned the error of this way to purchase automobiles )

Now today, that car is no longer available, but a comparable car "Chevy Camero SS" is. And a similarly configured model is around $35,000 MSRP. Which is almost double the adjusted for inflation number of $18,700 that Camero should cost relative to the $5200 Trans Am of 1977.

My income back then was 14,000 or just shy of 3 times what the car cost ... if you apply that same formula to the $35,000 Camero today, I'd have to earn roughly $100,000 per year to maintain the same standard (drive the same car) as my $14,000 income provided then. I was not wealthy then .. I was a 20 year old working in a warehouse driving a forklift. And I don't think there are many 6 figure forklift drivers around today ... I would say, the 40-50K range would be the upper limit ... or roughly the same as my $14,000 would be, adjusted for inflation.

This is one example, and almost any big item ... car, house, etc. works out to be the same. Some other items like Healthcare have dramatically exceeded those rates exponentially compared to 1977 where mine was absolutely free and first rate, including dental.

Now, add to this the higher taxes, social security withholding, and medicare ... all of which have exceeded the inflation rate (and don't let anyone BS you into believing it hasn't), means that the net spending power of your income has declined dramatically over the past 30+ years.

Now around about that same time frame, my step father worked for one of the US Government agencies earning roughly in the 50-60K range, and at the time, that was very good money, but not even close to RICH & Wealthy .... but adjusted for inflation, that comes out to around $200+K now. The house he purchased then at $50,000 appraised for $480,000 in 2004-5 even though the adjusted for inflation value would have only dictated a $155,000 figure ... 3 times the inflation rate!! By the time he retired in the late 90's, his income may have doubled, yet his house increased by 6-8 fold. What does that tell you?

Now if you are following me here ... this is where it gets real hairy ... if you take a Quarter ... 25 cents ... from say 1964 (the last 90% silver Quarter) that 25 cents equates to $1.76 in 2010 value. But guess what? Today's melt value of that sliver quarter is about $3.70 which is again more than double the published inflation rate ....

So what does that all mean? It means very simply, that the value of your money is worth about half of what it's claimed to be worth, even after being adjusted for inflation .... and all it takes is to actually look at the historical costs of items like cars, and houses and health care costs from the late 60's to today, and also the median incomes. You see that the purchasing power has indeed declined. And this is a result of the devaluation of the currency (a hidden tax).

So when it comes to buying power, there has been a continuous decline that doubles the the inflation rates admitted .. which is why the middle class really doesn't exist for all practical purposes today.

There are the ultra wealthy, and the rest. The $250kers are just at the higher end of that rest of us, and they are the last of the upper middle class, and the next in line to fall ... apparently, much to delight of many who think that they are members of the Wealthy Club, and must fall for the sake of everyone.

I suppose this proves that indeed, misery loves company.

And so does Elizabeth Warren!!




YouTube - The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:25 AM
 
Location: NE CT
1,496 posts, read 3,387,396 times
Reputation: 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
because actual COSTS have doubled

you understand when you pay a doctor $100, that its not $100 just going into the doctors pocket

he/she has to pay:
mortgage/rent
office help (nurse/receptionist/billing clerk)
supplies
ELECTRICAL BILL
taxes


you understand the AVERAGE hospital spends 430,000 dollars a MONTH on ELECTRICITY ALONE...that's 5,160,000 (5.1 million) a year just in electric costs...not to mention custodial costs, food costs, laundry costs, sanitation costs, staff costs, etc



get off your high horse..its not about profit (which every business NEEDS to make at least a little, otherwise they will shut thier doors)

you realize how many hospitals have GONE OUT OF BUSINESS because they cant make a profit enough to stay affloat...and the government is a good part of the problem

WCH;

You missed the biggest expense for Dr's today. MALPRACTRICE INSURANCE This cost drives many Dr's out of practice and shoves them into working in Labs or other institutions that cover their insurance if the screw up. The Ghost seems to think it's all rolling in money for Dr's.

If the Government would get out of the way, and get serious about tort reform, then Dr's could go back into family practice and keep the costs down so most people could afford to see them without taking out a loan to do it.
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