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Old 03-14-2011, 12:53 PM
 
6,484 posts, read 6,614,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bc42gb43 View Post
Question: do you believe that State X's government can legitimately pass a law or an amendment to their state's constitution that states "The Republican/Democratic/Libertarian/Green Party is prohibited from engaging in political activities, organizing rallies, or supporting candidates for elected office?"

If so, why?

If not, why not?
Why should they? Did the individual states have official state parties at the time of the Constitution's writing? Does the Constitution forbid Congress from making a law respecting the establishment of political parties?
Quote:



Do we really need to take the ideas of slaveholders into account as the only metric of constitutional interpretation? While many of the Framers were geniuses, and many of their ideas timeless, there are other opinions and political and legal doctrines held by the Framers which should not be strictly applied today.
Like it or not, we live according to the document they created. This argument is irrelevant.
Quote:
The beliefs of the Framers are certainly important and should be used as one means of statutory and constitutional interpretation. But they should not be the only measure by which we interpret the Constitution.
Actually...yes--they should. The Constitution is the Law of the Land. At least until you follow its procedures to change it. But an activist court deciding to read it differently than written is not correct.

Suppose the SCOTUS decided to read it as only Oprah-watching gay men are allowed to vote? Does that mean we should listen to it? I know that's absurd...but then, so is the idea of following any old idea that was not actually intended.
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
7,835 posts, read 8,435,990 times
Reputation: 8564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post

Why should they? Did the individual states have official state parties at the time of the Constitution's writing? Does the Constitution forbid Congress from making a law respecting the establishment of political parties?

Like it or not, we live according to the document they created. This argument is irrelevant.


Actually...yes--they should. The Constitution is the Law of the Land. At least until you follow its procedures to change it. But an activist court deciding to read it differently than written is not correct.

Suppose the SCOTUS decided to read it as only Oprah-watching gay men are allowed to vote? Does that mean we should listen to it? I know that's absurd...but then, so is the idea of following any old idea that was not actually intended.
Do you consider Chief Justice Roberts or Justice Scalia to be "activist judges"?

A 'yes' or 'no' will do.
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:02 PM
 
1,230 posts, read 1,039,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jill61 View Post
Do you consider Chief Justice Roberts or Justice Scalia to be "activist judges"?

A 'yes' or 'no' will do.
Yes.
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
7,835 posts, read 8,435,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DifferentDrum View Post

Yes.
Cute. I wasn't asking you.
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:09 PM
 
1,777 posts, read 1,402,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvinist View Post
Why should they? Did the individual states have official state parties at the time of the Constitution's writing? Does the Constitution forbid Congress from making a law respecting the establishment of political parties?
I'm not asking you whether or not it would be wise for a state government to do that - I'm asking you whether you believe a state government could do so legally.

Basically, do you think that a state can legally violate a person's right to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly? Seems like you think the answer is yes, but I'll wait to hear from you.

But yes, the Constitution prohibits Congress from banning political parties under the Free Speech Clause.

Quote:
Actually...yes--they should. The Constitution is the Law of the Land. At least until you follow its procedures to change it. But an activist court deciding to read it differently than written is not correct.

Suppose the SCOTUS decided to read it as only Oprah-watching gay men are allowed to vote? Does that mean we should listen to it? I know that's absurd...but then, so is the idea of following any old idea that was not actually intended.
Strawmen arguments don't help here. I admire our Constitution, and it's one of the most remarkable political documents ever drafted.

I am absolutely not saying that the Constitution should be read differently than written. What I am saying is that words are often unclear. For example, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." It raises several questions - at what point does a law respect an establishment of religion; what constitutes a law under this, a statute, regulation, any action; can an agency mandate religion by regulation?

We can answer those questions by going back to what the Framers stated. That's certainly doable and advisable in most circumstances. Another possibility is to apply the Establishment Clause in the modern context, and in conjunction with the 14th Amendment, which incorporates most of the requirements of the Bill of Rights to state and local governments. Those restrictions on the federal government that had been present since 1789 have also been restrictions on state and local governments for almost 100 years now.

For example, if we evaluate the constitutionality of say, the Civil Rights Act, based solely on what the Framers said and believed, then it would be plainly unconstitutional. Our Framers had ideas on race that would be considered abhorrent today, and they would have disapproved of the Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, and other civil rights legislation.
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:11 PM
 
20,948 posts, read 19,042,570 times
Reputation: 10270
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Now only if the principal were a Muslim and asked for praying to Allah, would unparalleled hilarity ensue...
What religion is God?

How do you know that the principal isn't muslim?
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:12 PM
 
20,948 posts, read 19,042,570 times
Reputation: 10270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantasy Tokoro View Post
Public school=government owned.

Prayer in a government owned school, no matter what the religion=establishing a religious belief.

What this principal did was wrong.

The only place religion belongs in public school is a religious studies elective, or touched upon in a world history class.

Bottom line is, public school? No forced prayer. Period. It's wrong, no matter what the religion.
Nah.

You're wrong.
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:15 PM
 
20,948 posts, read 19,042,570 times
Reputation: 10270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas View Post
Not by Congress, but by the State. Christianity, probably some form of Protestant Christianity. It is fine for students to pray on their own but the public school organizing it and conducting it is not legal, Period.
Casper
It's perfectly legal under the Constitution.

Preventing them from prayer is unconstitutional.
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,806,382 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
What religion is God?

How do you know that the principal isn't muslim?
1- I don't think God has a religion.
2- The lack of unparalleled hilarity in this thread.
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Old 03-14-2011, 01:17 PM
 
20,948 posts, read 19,042,570 times
Reputation: 10270
Quote:
Originally Posted by baaadgoatjoke View Post
And yet, organized by the school and therefore illegal.
Wrong.

The school does not represent congress.
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