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I'm white and I feel that the most qualified person for the job is entitled to the job, not the most qualified* person.
However that * has always and will always be part of the hiring practices. If AA is outlawed tomorrow, I doubt much will change.
I've been passed over for promotions because I was up against a Spanish speaking person because we had so many Spanish speaking associates we needed a bilingual manager (even though everyone there spoke English fluently)
I did a temp-to-hire job that ended because a girl who used to babysit somebody's kid decided she wanted the job.
I was laid off from a job because there wasn't enough work for me and my associates; one who was married to another associate who was high up in the company and the other was the son of an employee who'd been there forever and a day.
I've gotten jobs because I connected with an interviewer on the fact that we're from the same place.
Qualifications just tell you what you need to have to apply. Everything else is fluff.
Yes, but why don't these same people who moan and groan about Affirmative Action have the same level of anger about people being hired because of family connections or through acquaintances? These people are not usually the most qualified for the job.
The answer is that many Whites are able to swallow much more easily another White person getting a job over them....its only when they believe that a non-White (more specifically a Black person) gets a job that they wanted. That's when the outrage and wild accusations of lower qualifications start to fly.
I guess you missed my first reply, do I need to type it again? I'm WHITE and I don't believe any of the BS you keep spewing. I want the most qualified person to get the job, period. I don't approve of nepotism nor do I think black people are the only ones to benefit from AA.
However that * has always and will always be part of the hiring practices. If AA is outlawed tomorrow, I doubt much will change.
I've been passed over for promotions because I was up against a Spanish speaking person because we had so many Spanish speaking associates we needed a bilingual manager (even though everyone there spoke English fluently)
I did a temp-to-hire job that ended because a girl who used to babysit somebody's kid decided she wanted the job.
I was laid off from a job because there wasn't enough work for me and my associates; one who was married to another associate who was high up in the company and the other was the son of an employee who'd been there forever and a day.
I've gotten jobs because I connected with an interviewer on the fact that we're from the same place.
Qualifications just tell you what you need to have to apply. Everything else is fluff.
This is very true. If you know the right people, you are automatically more qualified then anyone else.
Yes, but why don't these same people who moan and groan about Affirmative Action have the same level of anger about people being hired because of family connections or through acquaintances? These people are not usually the most qualified for the job.
The answer is that many Whites are able to swallow much more easily another White person getting a job over them....its only when they believe that a non-White (more specifically a Black person) gets a job that they wanted. That's when the outrage and wild accusations of lower qualifications start to fly.
Oh, it's not a "wild accusation of lower qualifications". It's a fact. The court has ordered that, in effect, the tests be dumbed down.
On August 4th 2010 Judge Garaufis found that the most recent exam (Exam 6019) is also unlawful under the Civil Rights Act.
And just so we're clear on this - this is the SECOND dumbing down of the written exam. The first time was in 2002. Results of the written exams were:
89 % of white test-takers passed the 1999 exam, compared with 61% of blacks;
97% of whites passed a watered-down 2002 exam, compared with 85.6%of blacks.
Long story short: Several years ago I (Black woman, professional) was looking for house/apartment to rent in an upscale neighborhood. Driving to a friend's house after work, I saw a sign on the lawn that said "House for Rent". I parked my car (a Mercedes) to write down the number and while taking down the number a couple came out of the house. I politely asked the couple if they were the owners. They replied that yes they were the owners but the house was already rented. Thanked them for their time, hopped back into my car and drove away. After I drove away, my gut told me that they were lying, but oh well.
When I arrived at my friend's (who happend to be White), a few blocks away, I told her what happened and my gut feelings about it. We decided to go back to see if my gut feelings were correct. She drove her car and followed behind a few minutes behind. She gets to the house for rent, the sign is still in the front yard, the couple is still at the house. So my friend inquires about the house for a "friend" and the couple lets her know that YES IT IS STILL AVAILABLE. She tells them that's great and her "friend" will be here in a minute. And when I walked back up to the house where my friend was chatting with the couple. When they say me they looked as if they had seen a ghost. Then came the backpeddling on what they had told me previously because what they had done was illegal.
I was denied because my skin color. Life isn't fair sometimes. Move on.
By a private couple, not the government. Still wrong, but there is a big difference.
As you said, what they had done was illegal. What the OP posted is not only legal but mandated by a judge.
Oh, it's not a "wild accusation of lower qualifications". It's a fact. The court has ordered that, in effect, the tests be dumbed down.
On August 4th 2010 Judge Garaufis found that the most recent exam (Exam 6019) is also unlawful under the Civil Rights Act.
And just so we're clear on this - this is the SECOND dumbing down of the written exam. The first time was in 2002. Results of the written exams were:
89 % of white test-takers passed the 1999 exam, compared with 61% of blacks;
97% of whites passed a watered-down 2002 exam, compared with 85.6%of blacks.
The facts as you have laid them out show in both cases that the majority of Black Americans taking to test passed it. The fact that the NYFD is over 90% White American when White Americans don't represent that percentage of the general population shows there is a certain bias in the NYFD toward non-White American application. This bias and discrimination is longstanding and historical.
The reality is people can complain about Affirmative Action all they want but court mandated Affirmation Action is ONLY put in place in situations where racial bias and dsicrimination has CLEARLY BEEN DEMONSTRATED.
If White Americans don't like Affirmative Action the best thing they can do to make it go away IS STOP DISCRIMINATING BASED ON RACE so that racial discrimination suits either significantly diminish or they are found to be legally groundless.
Corrections and sanitation are literally only a couple thousand a yr below cops and ff's. Same bennies, same retirements. These are all open competitive exams. ANYBODY can sign up and take any of them. There are no "family connections" as people love to spout off about.
I have some questions because I don't live in NY, but I do work with FF's all the time.
1. Are prospective FF's in NYC only allowed to take the exam once? In AZ, people can take that test several times. Same goes for the physical fitness test.
2. If you are allowed to take the test more than once, why did you not?
3. In a city with so much diversity, how come the FD is 91 percent white? That does not make sense to me. When I was active duty military, each base I was assigned to had a (military) Fire Department. There were whites, blacks, hispanics and a few Asians. The military does not have AA. You test and you have to meet the physical profile (like 20/20 uncorrected vision). Then they send you to the tech school and you have to graduate from that.
4. Are there any studies regarding generational nepotism in the NYFD? I ask because more than one FF has told me that "it helps" to know people when you go in front of a board.
The facts as you have laid them out show in both cases that the majority of Black Americans taking to test passed it. The fact that the NYFD is over 90% White American when White Americans don't represent that percentage of the general population shows there is a certain bias in the NYFD toward non-White American application. This bias and discrimination is longstanding and historical.
The reality is people can complain about Affirmative Action all they want but court mandated Affirmation Action is ONLY put in place in situations where racial bias and dsicrimination has CLEARLY BEEN DEMONSTRATED.
If White Americans don't like Affirmative Action the best thing they can do to make it go away IS STOP DISCRIMINATING BASED ON RACE so that racial discrimination suits either significantly diminish or they are found to be legally groundless.
And what about the data that states that Blacks made up only 7.8% of all test takers in 2002? Did discrimination exist in the FDNY prior to 2002? Sure. Would the FDNY also be considered a cultural pattern for Irish and Italian American Whites? Sure it would. In the same way the NYC Corrections Department is 66% Black and you have generational workers there. That is why the City and the FDNY has spent about $20 million in their efforts to recruit minorities.
No change is going to happen overnight. And no change should involve lowering standards. To me, that is insulting.
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