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Old 07-27-2007, 01:17 PM
 
Location: on a northbound train
478 posts, read 960,917 times
Reputation: 336

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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiritwalker View Post

What I find most disturbing is the constant reference to someones intelligence or lack of by those opposed to Organizations such as Gathering of Eagles. The same people who would point out a misspelling in a photograph (THE TRUE MORONS) would not in a million years criticize a Black Man for butchering a sentence or destroying the english language( Ebonics). Quite frankly people such as these are cowards.
You find it disturbing, because you know there is a great deal of truth to it. What are normal people who see through all the lies supposed to do??? Call everyone intelligent, and praise their ignorance? And...sorry the picture got you riled up, I hope it wasn't anyone you knew.

And as far as blacks and ebonics, how do you know what I think about all that? Personally, I find it all just as pathetic as you guys - on a scale though, of far less importance - but what does it have to do with this topic?

And... also....

You calling me a coward Pilgram? Well how about we settle this like real men...over at the Gathering of Eagles?
http://www.digisys.net/users/ksbridal/color_of_john_wayne.jpg (broken link)

 
Old 07-27-2007, 01:22 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 4,752,147 times
Reputation: 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
Even more key would be having good reason to send the military. I agree we need to let them fight when justified, the rules of engagement are inane. I've read that in Vietnam a pilot was not allowed to attack an enemy aircraft that was on the ground, they had to wait 'til the enemy took off, what a load of crap! If it's your enemy I don't see it making much difference if you shoot him in his sleep.
Problem is people like you will say, “I agree we need to let them fight when justified”, knowing that there is no scenario where you will ever see war as justified.
Here’s a news flash, look up the “Iraq War” rules of engagement and you won’t see a lot of difference between now and Vietnam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
I've been looking for a good reason for Vietnam for a long time. I borrowed Robert McNamara's book from the library. Not far in he basically says that at the time we didn't know too much about Vietnam but we went anyway. I closed the book and returned it, I'm still looking for a reason.
Is the “I borrowed Robert McNamara's book from the library” supposed to show you made the effort, even though you didn’t really intend to find the truth, as your mind was already made up?
 
Old 07-27-2007, 01:23 PM
 
6,762 posts, read 11,650,135 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
Anti-American is a term brandished by the right every time they don't approve of something. Such an easy cop-out and so sad and deluded.

hypocrisy there isn't there ? It sounds just like fascist , communist and neo nazi fanatics who can't accept that anyone apart from them should have a voice and the right to peaceful process.
Not Hysteria-whipping, scare mongering , hateful, repressive groups.

Once again I am baffled !
Baffled by what? Hypocrisy?

Both sides are guilty of name calling and all it does is water down any chance of voices of reason being heard.
 
Old 07-27-2007, 01:24 PM
 
10,545 posts, read 13,612,697 times
Reputation: 2823
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
Even more key would be having good reason to send the military. I agree we need to let them fight when justified, the rules of engagement are inane. I've read that in Vietnam a pilot was not allowed to attack an enemy aircraft that was on the ground, they had to wait 'til the enemy took off, what a load of crap! If it's your enemy I don't see it making much difference if you shoot him in his sleep.
I agree with that. I've read a lot of idiotic rules of engagement. I agree that sending troops can't be taken lightly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
I've been looking for a good reason for Vietnam for a long time. I borrowed Robert McNamara's book from the library. Not far in he basically says that at the time we didn't know too much about Vietnam but we went anyway. I closed the book and returned it, I'm still looking for a reason.
It was a definite problem that we did not have a clear objective.
 
Old 07-27-2007, 01:25 PM
 
1,652 posts, read 2,556,159 times
Reputation: 1463
hmmmmm......

Quote:
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
 
Old 07-27-2007, 01:30 PM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,364 posts, read 54,583,164 times
Reputation: 40841
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedNC View Post
Problem is people like you will say, “I agree we need to let them fight when justified”, knowing that there is no scenario where you will ever see war as justified.
Here’s a news flash, look up the “Iraq War” rules of engagement and you won’t see a lot of difference between now and Vietnam.
And your point would be?



Quote:
Originally Posted by RedNC View Post
Is the “I borrowed Robert McNamara's book from the library” supposed to show you made the effort, even though you didn’t really intend to find the truth, as your mind was already made up?
You can entertain any baseless ideas you care to but I've made a much larger effort than reading one book by one of the ringleaders of that entire debacle. If you have any new reasons that justify Vietnam I'm interested in reading them, keep in mind the 'Domino Theory' was debunked a long time ago.

I'm still open to new ideas but here's a news flash for you: "America right or wrong" can only lead to failure, if something's wrong we need to make it right, not just sit back and say "we're America, it must be right".
 
Old 07-27-2007, 02:54 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 4,752,147 times
Reputation: 1445
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
And your point would be?
Point is the rules of engagement haven’t changed much from the Vietnam to the Iraq war. The politicians are still trying to run this war from DC.
Also the media tactics are similar. Pound the people with negative press on the war until they want us to surrender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
You can entertain any baseless ideas you care to but I've made a much larger effort than reading one book by one of the ringleaders of that entire debacle. If you have any new reasons that justify Vietnam I'm interested in reading them, keep in mind the 'Domino Theory' was debunked a long time ago.

I'm still open to new ideas but here's a news flash for you: "America right or wrong" can only lead to failure, if something's wrong we need to make it right, not just sit back and say "we're America, it must be right".
I never said we should have ever been in Vietnam that was a decision made by Kennedy when I was in single digits.
By the time I was aware of what was going on all I wanted was for it to end. I didn’t see the point then and I don’t see it now.

Today we are fighting a real enemy that only wants us dead. Quitting the war will only embolden them. We have to win this one or they will. There is no talking our way out of this one, it’s us or them. I choose us.
 
Old 07-27-2007, 03:26 PM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,364 posts, read 54,583,164 times
Reputation: 40841
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedNC View Post
I never said we should have ever been in Vietnam that was a decision made by Kennedy when I was in single digits.
By the time I was aware of what was going on all I wanted was for it to end. I didn’t see the point then and I don’t see it now.

Today we are fighting a real enemy that only wants us dead. Quitting the war will only embolden them. We have to win this one or they will. There is no talking our way out of this one, it’s us or them. I choose us.
I think there may have been a few boots on the ground under Truman and it was Eisenhower that started with 'advisors'. Had Kennedy lived and been re-elected I believe we would have been out of Vietnam by 1965, it's well documented he already saw it as largely folly.

The current situation is where I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. While I agree there is a real enemy I believe it is al Qaeda and isn't nor ever was Saddam. After 4+ years in Iraq they tell us al Qaeda is stringer than ever and operating training camps in Pakistan. I see far too many similarities between Vietnam and Iraq to be comfortable with including but not limited to:
  1. The folly of fighting for people who won't fight for themselves
  2. US involvement in a civil war unlikely to benefit the US
  3. Politicians unwilling to admit mistakes and seek a better course of action
Al Qaeda operates in over forty countries, I think our heavy involvement in Iraq has hampered our ability to go after the true enemy.

EDIT: That being said I will take exception with anyone who attempts to insinuate, infer, imply, or flat out state that being opposed to Bush's Iraq policy makes one anti-American or means you wish any harm to the troops. That's just a lame excuse for being unable to logically defend an opposing view.

Last edited by burdell; 07-27-2007 at 03:41 PM..
 
Old 07-27-2007, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,026 posts, read 24,668,963 times
Reputation: 20165
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnbound2day View Post
Baffled by what? Hypocrisy?

Both sides are guilty of name calling and all it does is water down any chance of voices of reason being heard.
I have no problem with hearing the other side but don't think being "stopped" is exactly showing a great sense of democracy. As far as I am concerned , all people should be able to protest and demonstrate peacefully. People trying to "stop" it does sound exactly like the fanatic and extreme groups I mentioned. It sounds like scare tactics and I am not sure how saying that makes me a hypocrite ?
 
Old 07-27-2007, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Texas
451 posts, read 836,841 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudCapMarine View Post
It is the group of Proud Americans that has been stopping Cindy Sheehan, Code Pink, A.N.S.W.E.R., etc in their tracks. You can read about this 'new' patriotic group of Americans at: Again, Cindy Sheehan Cowers to Gathering of Eagles (GOE)

Learn about "Gathering of Eagles". It is open to all Proud Americans.

On September 15, 2007, Socialists, Marxists and Left-Wing Progressive Organizations from Around the World Are Planning A Huge Anti-American Rally In Washington DC. They will be met by America's fastest growing patriotic organization, 'Gathering of Eagles'. Learn some details about this event at: SEPTEMBER 15, 2007 WASHINGTON DC - SUPPORT OUR TROOPS RALLY

Please discuse how you feel about Gathering of Eagles: PRO or CON.

I'm proud to have attended two Gathering of Eagles events so far. The March 17, 2007 Veterans Memorials event in Washington DC and the Memorial Day Weekend events in Washington DC. (I never saw that many brikes in my life.)
Wow it's great to see such a patriotic group of people I think GOE is awesome!
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