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To sum this up. You are a product of your choices. Choose convenience or Choose responsibility. Clearly there will never be an agreement between these two sides.
Responsibility is to hard a concept for abortionists to understand.
Like when a child can't keep their hand out of the cookie jar and cries when they are punished for their impulsive and poor judgement.
Don't let the guy put his hand in your cookie jar and you have chosen the path of responsibility. If you do then be responsible for your actions. That is pro-choice.
responsibility to do the right thing according to the individual's own values and morals not yours.
understand this without a doubt....abortion is the responsible choice in the cases where the pregnant woman wanted it.
The pro-choicers on this thread need to READ. I am fine with women obtaining a unilateral abortion. I am neither pro-life nor pro-choice. My argument is for equal rights between men and women to opt out of parenthood during the first few trimesters. We can equalize this by allowing the man to opt out legally and financially. The woman can still obtain an abortion without his input. Are you for or against this?
read the post from Taboo that I just re-posted at the top of the page.
That's fair enough. No one should be able to force anyone into anything they don't want.
BUT
What happens when we get a he said/she said -- going in the agree to follow through with the pregnancy, but past the legal abortion stage -- he changes his mind?
Thanks for bringing up this good question. His opt-out period would expire once she's past the point where she can abort, UNLESS she disappeared and did not notify him of the pregnancy. The burden would be on him to file a simple form in the local courthouse if he knows about it and is sure or unsure if it's his.
Where in my post did I say I wanted to punish anyone with pregnancy? If you read the above post throughly, and read my other posts in this thread, you would know that I do not care if a woman gets an abortion! My argument is to equalize the rights so a man can opt-out if she decides to keep the baby. If she gets one and he doesn't want it, too bad for him, it's her body. But if she keeps it and he doesn't want it, too bad for her, he should have the same right to opt out financially as she has.
I am not a pro-life or pro-choice person, so don't assume simply I took a contrarian position to one of your posts. I have called out the hypocrisy of pro-lifers in this thread on their stances for rape and incest. I don't care if abortion is legal or illegal. My arguments are for equal rights for men, since the SCOTUS has decided that abortion is a Constitutional right in Roe v. Wade.
If men, women or couples want to get an abortion, that's fine, it's not my business. But inequality IS my business.
My position on this is that if a woman is in a committed, non-abusive relationship with a man, and has an unplanned pregnancy, she ethically owes her partner, be they married or not, the truth. He deserves to know that she has become pregnant, and he deserves the opportunity to tell her his feelings on the matter. If the pregnancy is the result of a casual sexual assignation, where neither person has an investment emotionally, then it is her decision whether to inform him of her pregnancy or not. But if she wants to go through the pregnancy and have the baby, and wants his financial support, she has to inform him before viability is reached and he should have the opportunity to decline. If she doesn't notify him, then he is not obligated to financially support that child. If he declines to be involved, that would be a factor I would assume in whether she would want to have the child or not. But in the end, since she is the person most impacted by pregnancy, emotionally, physically, financially, the choice rightfully belongs to her. I would feel terribly for a man who wants that child, if she chose to abort it, because I think it would be devastating for that man. But at the same time, if they are involved in a relationship, that she would make that choice says a lot about that relationship, and the future of that relationship, doesn't it?
read the post from Taboo that I just re-posted at the top of the page.
the answer to your question
And here was my rebuttal to that post you re-posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123
Good afternoon,
The living vs "non-living" point is taken and not really what I care about. I care about the living man's rights being balanced with the living woman's rights. If she decides to kill her baby, I'm 100% fine with it since the Supreme Court said it's legal. I am neither pro-life nor pro-choice.
As I said to another poster, this right given to women by the SCOTUS has limited rights to men. The way to balance it is to give men a financial and legal opt-out. Why are you not for this? It still allows women to still get a unilateral abortion, so you're not losing anything.
It's very surprising to see posters who claim to be pro-choice, come out against pro "financial/legal choice" for men.
And it's your choice to call a women's life, her physical and economic well-being and the actions she takes to advance and protect that life, as mere convenience. Do you like women? Is that why you make the analogy of a woman to a child? She couldn't keep her legs closed, the silly little girl, and now she cries because she's getting punished for it. Do you see how demeaning and insulting your arguments are towards women?
What if I let the guy put his hand in my cookie jar, but before I did so, I did all the responsible things, I made him put a glove on his hand, I had a little mousetrap put in the cookie jar, and all my precautions fail. Does this little girl still need to be punished? People need to be punished for having sex?
Seeing as how those are the arguments that are presented by my Wife and Daughters when they drug me into this whole right to life crusade a couple of years ago I believe they are very valid.
Where you see it as punishment I see it as being responsible for your choices and actions. Again the child or immature being sees responsibility as punishment. If you play with fire then you are apt to be burned.
Have all the sex you want just understand the consequences.
I believe in the sanctity of females ability to give life and I will staunchly defend it against forces that choose to debase and demean that gift.
I choose to view life as a gift. Not as a mass of cells to be destroyed on the whim of an irresponsible action.
Where in my post did I say I wanted to punish anyone with pregnancy? If you read the above post throughly, and read my other posts in this thread, you would know that I do not care if a woman gets an abortion! My argument is to equalize the rights so a man can opt-out if she decides to keep the baby. If she gets one and he doesn't want it, too bad for him, it's her body. But if she keeps it and he doesn't want it, too bad for her, he should have the same right to opt out financially as she has.
I am not a pro-life or pro-choice person, so don't assume simply I took a contrarian position to one of your posts. I have called out the hypocrisy of pro-lifers in this thread on their stances for rape and incest. I don't care if abortion is legal or illegal. My arguments are for equal rights for men, since the SCOTUS has decided that abortion is a Constitutional right in Roe v. Wade.
If men, women or couples want to get an abortion, that's fine, it's not my business. But inequality IS my business.
so you are in this thread because you feel men have too much possible responsibility for having sex? the "I don't know" the "undecided" "the I don't care" how can anyone be so milk toast they can't form an opinion, come on step up and make a choice. women do it everyday and stand by it
My position on this is that if a woman is in a committed, non-abusive relationship with a man, and has an unplanned pregnancy, she ethically owes her partner, be they married or not, the truth. He deserves to know that she has become pregnant, and he deserves the opportunity to tell her his feelings on the matter. If the pregnancy is the result of a casual sexual assignation, where neither person has an investment emotionally, then it is her decision whether to inform him of her pregnancy or not. But if she wants to go through the pregnancy and have the baby, and wants his financial support, she has to inform him before viability is reached and he should have the opportunity to decline. If she doesn't notify him, then he is not obligated to financially support that child. If he declines to be involved, that would be a factor I would assume in whether she would want to have the child or not. But in the end, since she is the person most impacted by pregnancy, emotionally, physically, financially, the choice rightfully belongs to her. I would feel terribly for a man who wants that child, if she chose to abort it, because I think it would be devastating for that man. But at the same time, if they are involved in a relationship, that she would make that choice says a lot about that relationship, and the future of that relationship, doesn't it?
Sounds good to me!
All I'm looking for is some common sense and the removal of hypocrisy in rights for this topic. Thanks for your detailed, even handed response.
And here was my rebuttal to that post you re-posted.
I could go with an opt out for certain situations for the man, but the trouble lies within the details of the situation. trouble is people lie all the time, who gets to be the judge?
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