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That's nice that in your 2-week, 6-country econo-teen-tour, you got to see so much of the tourist traps of the middle east 20 years ago, but the reality is that the christian minorities are being quickly ethnically cleansed out of the middle east.
I lived in the Middle East as foreigner for 15 years and got back last year. This was not 20 years ago. And I had been in each of the countries I mentioned in for at least 2 years!! That gives me more insight than you at this point. Because i saw a lot with my own two eyes!
Covering one's "assets" has nothing to do with male superiority. It has everything to do with the concept of modesty, which perhaps some of the women in France would do well to emulate.
Er, so does this mean brides can't wear veils either?
As long as they're not Muslim brides, it should be fine.
What drives me nuts is how Sarkozy and so many other people assume that all these women are oppressed. Has it ever occurred to them that some of these women CHOOSE to wear niqab or burqa? If they're in Saudi Arabia or Iran where it's the law to wear one, that's one thing, but if they have the freedom not to wear it, then it makes no sense to assume they're being forced. In fact, they're being oppressed by being forced not to wear it.
Why don't they actually listen to some of these women, like the women in this video, who state pretty clearly that it's their choice?
The fact that they are forced into a class about secular values but police are not allowed to remove the niqab just proves further that it's about religion and not about safety.
Legislating what people wear in either direction, whether it's what they can wear or can't wear, is oppression. Letting people dress as they choose is the true sign of freedom.
Let me ask...in some Muslim countries, are non-Muslim women required to wear a burka, naqab or other covering? If so, that is a clear cut violation of basic human decency. You can make the arguement that it's their country, their culture, which is fine. Why then is the banning of wearing a symbol of oppression an any different? If I'm not mistake, Germany bans the wearing of the Swastaka.
There are plenty of moslem women who do not wear a veil or a burka. The complete cover-up thing is very much a middle-east/arab thing. There are loads of moslem countries where women do no more than cover their hair and, from a recent visit to Casablanca, there were plenty who do none of the above.
The veil/burka is not a religious thing. It is a symbol of male domination of women that islam, in particular, supports but that you also find in other religions. Therefore, banning the veil/burka is not an attack on Islam. But it is very much a defense of those hard won rights that women have in the western world.
The hijab/burqa is not a requirement in the Qur'an but many Muslim women wear it out of their own choice. I have spoken personally to Muslim women who explained to me that it made them feel closer to Allah. I know Muslim men who also choose to wear male hijab (long sleeves and long pants year-round). They are obviously not oppressed, not even in many of the countries that do systematically oppress women.
Is that still a symbol of male domination? Or is it a thought process that people who don't choose to wear hijab impose on all hijabis, not knowing the true personal intention of each individual?
In countries where it's written into law to wear hijab or burqa, it certainly is a sign of oppression. But when a woman lives in a country where she has the freedom to show her hair and limbs, choosing to wear it is not a sign of oppression. The choice to wear it--the freedom to wear what you want--is actually a sign of freedom.
Let me ask...in some Muslim countries, are non-Muslim women required to wear a burka, naqab or other covering? If so, that is a clear cut violation of basic human decency. You can make the arguement that it's their country, their culture, which is fine. Why then is the banning of wearing a symbol of oppression an any different? If I'm not mistake, Germany bans the wearing of the Swastaka.
In many of those countries, not being Muslim is in and of itself illegal or a "valid" reason for persecution. So the question of whether non-Muslims are required to wear hijab isn't even brought up. You're just supposed to be Muslim to begin with.
I agree--legally we can't tell people they can't wear them to walk the street. But I know that I have to remove my hat when I walk into a bank. I'm guessing that if I was wearing a mask when I get my Driver's License they'd also ask me to remove it. I think it's reasonable to expect people to show their face if they want to do certain things.
That's all well n' good, but has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
That's all well n' good, but has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.
You are incorrect. It is the central theme of the movement to require the shedding of the garment. Democracy means participation and participation means showing people who you are. One may not subvert the goals of society by exploiting the religious freedom granted. That is why the French did what they did. And trust me, they will continue to pass laws to stop the isolation of these women.
As long as they're not Muslim brides, it should be fine.
What drives me nuts is how Sarkozy and so many other people assume that all these women are oppressed. Has it ever occurred to them that some of these women CHOOSE to wear niqab or burqa? If they're in Saudi Arabia or Iran where it's the law to wear one, that's one thing, but if they have the freedom not to wear it, then it makes no sense to assume they're being forced. In fact, they're being oppressed by being forced not to wear it.
Why don't they actually listen to some of these women, like the women in this video, who state pretty clearly that it's their choice?
The fact that they are forced into a class about secular values but police are not allowed to remove the niqab just proves further that it's about religion and not about safety.
Legislating what people wear in either direction, whether it's what they can wear or can't wear, is oppression. Letting people dress as they choose is the true sign of freedom.
Have you ever heard of an inferiority complex. The notion that somehow women in the Arab world are seen as equals is laughable. When you are born into a society where it is beaten into your head from birth that you are worth less than your male counterparts, that you deserve less than your male counterparts, and that you should be subservient to your male counterparts, you would not know any better. (see Lima Syndrome)
Also, why are people freaking out at French beliefs and customs. If these women do not wish to remain oppressed in France, they are more than welcome to return to these Utopian egalitarian lands you claim they love so much. These Utopian lands where they are stoned to death after being raped, where they are treated as second-class citizens, and where they are denied an education. At the end of the day, this law is going to benefit these women more than any other segment of that society. Do you truly believe that these women have more rights in the Arab world than they do in one of the most liberal democratic states to have existed?
The reason that it is being banned in the first place is because they are forced to wear it back home. The French see that as a symbol of oppression are free to dictate the laws in their own sovereign state.
I will also add that your last point goes under the assumption that without the law, these women were free to dress as they chose. Do you really think that women in the Arab world are given that right? If so, I suggest you start reading up on the Muslim teenage girls who are killed by their immigrant dads because they dare to assimilate and fit in with everyone else.
Alas, I am not stupid, the majority of Muslims do not fall into that category. But I said it once and I'll say it again..."when in Rome, do as the Romans do". You would be amazed at the wonders assimilation does....
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