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What you don't seem to understand is that the issue at hand isn't about French hypocrisy and bigotry, but instead it's more of a reaction to the mistreatment of women in the Arab world. The French are letting the Muslim populations know that their sexist views are unacceptable and that those mindsets have no place in contemporary French culture. The problem is that Islam is not compatible with western cultures and that it contradicts it in more ways than it compliments it. The French should not have to bend over backwards to accommodate views which conflict with their core values, and unfortunately for those who choose to wear the niqab, it symbolizes those views.
I don't think this is true at all. Islam can be very compatible with Western values. I know many Muslims in the U.S. who are both Muslim and believe in gender equality, self-expression, freedom of religion, and all sorts of other American values. I was raised by several Muslim women au pairs and somehow I managed to come out being okay with my homosexuality, my femaleness, etc. Not all Islam is radical Islam. I even know women who wear hijab that believe in gender equality. Their wearing it has nothing to do with being submissive to men. It has to do with being submissive to Allah, which is a very common concept in Christianity too. In fact, most theistic religions teach being submissive to God. It's important to look at the reason behind the hijab, and not just the hijab. If the reason being the hijab is a personal desire to be close to Allah or something to that effect, that's very different from a woman who is wearing it to "know her place" or a woman who is wearing it out of fear her male relatives will give her a hard time.
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France niqab ban = line in the sand of a much bigger issue.
I understand this too. We just disagree. I just believe that forcing people NOT to wear something is just as oppressive as forcing people TO wear something, and as a result, I think forcing women to take the burqa off is doing the same thing as forcing them to put it on. We just see it differently. But I don't by any means deny what is happening in many Islam countries, especially with the work I do. I couldn't ignore it even if I wanted to.
What would you tell American-born Muslims (born or converted) who chose to wear burqa? They're born here; this is their country.
I was wondering the same thing. I'm not a fan of the burqa nor of the oppression of women, however in my neighborhood there are a lot of African American Muslims who are obviously not immigrants nor of Middle Eastern descent that wear the full garb.
I can't see how you could tell them as American citizens that they can no longer wear it. That doesn't sit right with the concepts of religious freedoms in this country at all, as far as I, as a legal layperson, interpret them.
You have no idea what freedom is, and your insults towards me are laced with the venom which is the hallmark of those societies and it's "lawful" attitudes towards women and their freedom and to the men that want their empowerment.
Think about it. Can a woman in those countries CHOOSE to wear a pink skirt in any city with ruby red lipstick and hot pants because she WANTS to? Because she wants to feel the wind caress her thighs as she walks and to feel sexy and to know that every man who sees her desires her? NO!
That is simple oppression and the attitudes laws and agreements which contribute to it are a cult. A cult of deception, secret agreements and subjugation.
Don't try and sell that to an American.
That dog won't hunt darlin'.
Yea genius, I have seen women wear short skirts over the knees. I have seen it with my own two eyes. Call that venom, when your eyes see the truth? You believe anything and everything you hear. Make a conservative effort to figure out the truth instead of breeding your hate towards a group of people of a certain religion.
You don't know the least bit about what makes a woman sexy. I don't think wearing a short skirt makes every woman feel sexy let alone red ruby lips. Unless you are a woman and have experienced wearing something that makes you feel sexy I don't think your '"concept"" of sexy matches what every woman out there considers sexy.
And I am not selling anything, you just need to see it for your eyes instead of believing what you read, - that is being critical of what the media tells you. I guess you don't question everything you read, because in your world everybody is telling the truth but ofcourse me.
Yea genius, I have seen women wear short skirts over the knees. I have seen it with my own two eyes. Call that venom, when your eyes see the truth? You believe anything and everything you hear. Make a conservative effort to figure out the truth instead of breeding your hate towards a group of people of a certain religion.
You don't know the least bit about what makes a woman sexy. I don't think wearing a short skirt makes every woman feel sexy let alone red ruby lips. Unless you are a woman and have experienced wearing something that makes you feel sexy I don't think your '"concept"" of sexy matches what every woman out there considers sexy.
And I am not selling anything, you just need to see it for your eyes instead of believing what you read, - that is being critical of what the media tells you. I guess you don't question everything you read, because in your world everybody is telling the truth but ofcourse me.
You and I are going to disagree. Your personal insults reveal quite a bit about who you are and who you hate.
I was wondering the same thing. I'm not a fan of the burqa nor of the oppression of women, however in my neighborhood there are a lot of African American Muslims who are obviously not immigrants nor of Middle Eastern descent that wear the full garb.
I can't see how you could tell them as American citizens that they can no longer wear it. That doesn't sit right with the concepts of religious freedoms in this country at all, as far as I, as a legal layperson, interpret them.
In America the rights of the individual are posited to be superior to the collective society. In France the society is paramount.
I was wondering the same thing. I'm not a fan of the burqa nor of the oppression of women, however in my neighborhood there are a lot of African American Muslims who are obviously not immigrants nor of Middle Eastern descent that wear the full garb.
I can't see how you could tell them as American citizens that they can no longer wear it. That doesn't sit right with the concepts of religious freedoms in this country at all, as far as I, as a legal layperson, interpret them.
Another classic example of where burqa doesn't necessarily mean the oppression of women.
In America the rights of the individual are posited to be superior to the collective society. In France the society is paramount.
The idea that they can't participate in society wearing burqa is a hang up the French have, though. If other people let go of their assumptions, they can invite burqa'i woman to participate in events and that woman can accept the invitation and fully participate in whatever she wants to participate in. The French are assuming that every burqa'i woman is an oppressed woman, which is simply not the case. Rather than make a sweeping generalization about them all, French people should get to know burqa'i women as individuals and decide from there if their personal values mesh well or clash. They just may discover that some burqa'i women really do have similar values to French culture or Western culture, or even just gender equality in general, but that they choose to wear burqa for themselves. And if another burqa'i women obviously believes in female inferiority, that French individual can choose to find some other friend. It's not that hard to just to get to know people a little before judging them. Look at the person, not the group.
Another classic example of where burqa doesn't necessarily mean the oppression of women.
But it does prevent the members of the society from seeing her and in that and their minds is a loss, a disappointment and some would suggest an intentional shift from an open society to one which is closed.
But it does prevent the members of the society from seeing her and in that and their minds is a loss, a disappointment and some would suggest an intentional shift from an open society to one which is closed.
People should be responsible for their own close-mindedness though. If my mindset closes me off from a whole group of people, that's my problem, not theirs. I need to change the way I think. I don't have the right to force the way I think on other people.
It's not like these women are trying to force other women to wear burqa. They just want to be able to wear it themselves.
Again, burqa is not synonymous with closed in the context of this discussion. In countries where it is law and forced, it is, but when someone wears it in a free country of their own volition, it's not a sign of a closed society. In fact, it's a sign of a society that's open enough to let you practice your religion freely.
The French people who are opposing burqa are imposing their assumptions of what burqa means onto all burqa'i women. But this is just not necessarily accurate. They need to take a step back and realize the burqa means something different for each woman.
This woman wears hijab, and she's not even Muslim:
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