Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-14-2011, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,440,440 times
Reputation: 6541

Advertisements

There appears to be a lot of "civically challenged" people on C-D that are not aware how their own government functions. Any time your see posts that blames a President for acts of Congress, you are seeing someone who is civically ignorant. Particularly when it comes to spending. Presidents do not spend, Congress spends. If you do not believe me see:

Quote:
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Source: Article I, Section 7, Clause 1 of the US Constitution
This is when the naysayers pop-up and assert that the President signs those spending bills. That is not entirely true. Presidents do regularly sign bills into law. However, even if a President did not sign a bill into law it still becomes law automatically after 10 calendar days (excluding Sundays) while Congress is still in session. If you do not believe me see:

Quote:
If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.

Source: Last Sentence from Article I, Section 7, Clause 2 of the US Constitution
Budgets are always for the following fiscal year. Which means that the budget Congress enacted in 1989 was for fiscal year 1990, for example. So when Bush 41 was elected in November 1988, and became President in January 1989, his very first proposed budget would have been for fiscal year 1990.

Since there is always contention with some as to what is "off-budget" and what is "on-budget", I used the total National Debt instead. That means it also includes the intra-governmental portion of the debt, in addition to the publicly held portion of the debt. It will also include all spending for every war or every other non-budgetary item Congress concocts.





The above chart shows the total National Debt as a percentage of the GDP, and it also shows who controlled Congress during this period.

When Clinton was elected in November 1992, and became President in January 1993 he had to live with the budget enacted by the previous session of Congress. Clinton's very first proposed budget was for the fiscal year 1994.

The dip during the 1990s was not a result of surplus. It was the result of an increasing GDP. Spending continued to increase, just not nearly as much when compared to the increase in the GDP.

From June 2001 through December 2002 Congress was split. The GOP controlled the House, and the Democrats controlled the Senate. Which means that in both the GOP and Democrats came up with the 2002 and 2003 fiscal year budgets.

The following data was used to create the above graph:



Hopefully, this thread will prevent most people from embarrassing themselves by crediting or blaming Presidents for acts of Congress. I am absolutely certain that some will cling to their ignorance, insisting that Presidents are omnipotent beings deserving of our blame regardless of what goes wrong, or our credit regardless of what goes right. But those people are fools and should be mocked for not knowing how their own government functions.

Congress, primarily the House but also the Senate, deserve either blame or credit for the budgets they enact, not the President. Yes, the President does propose a budget (a recent tradition that began with President Wilson). And yes, the President can veto parts or all of the budget. However, no President gets what he wants, even when their own party is in control, and no President is going to veto a bill that has a veto-proof majority coming out of Congress.

There are a total of twelve appropriation bills that constitute the US budget, and the President may veto any one of them, all of them, or any combination thereof. It is a mistake, however, to assume that just because a President signs a bill into law that he actually supports the law.

Remember, despite the even dumber mainstream media (including Fox), there is no such thing as either the "Bush Tax Cuts" or "ObamaCare." In 2001 Congress, not Bush, enacted the tax cuts. In 2010 Congress, not Obama, enacted the Affordable Health Care Act.

If we do not know how our own government functions, then what hope is there that any problem can be fixed? We need to be more civically aware so that we can correctly identity who is responsible for either the credit or blame. Blaming the President for everything under the sun is childish, at the very least, and woefully ignorant at worst.

If you are intent on blaming the President, at least do so for the areas he is responsible, such as foreign policy or the way the military is being treated, or their nominations and appointments, etc., etc. But do NOT blame them for the federal budget.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-14-2011, 06:24 PM
 
Location: My little patch of Earth
6,193 posts, read 5,365,792 times
Reputation: 3059
Quote:
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.
Then pray tell, WHO authored Obamacare? It's appropriated money.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2011, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,440,440 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
Then pray tell, WHO authored Obamacare? It's appropriated money.
That particular bill has a convoluted history. It began with the House passing a bill Speaker Pelosi put together. Appropriately, as the US Constitution requires, it began with the House. However, after the House passed the bill Sen. Reid completely replaced the House bill with his own legislation, which the Senate passed and the House passed without amendment. That is not suppose to be how it works. The Senate does not originate appropriation bills, that responsibility falls to the House exclusively. The Senate may only amend appropriation bills, not replace them entirely.

So if you want to apply a label to the Affordable Health Care Act of 2010 then it should be called "ReidCare", not "ObamaCare."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2011, 07:55 PM
 
1,233 posts, read 1,217,876 times
Reputation: 452
They need to cap spending now and end the wars.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2011, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,440,440 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtimer2 View Post
They need to cap spending now and end the wars.
You will get no disagreement from me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2011, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Southeast
4,301 posts, read 7,031,240 times
Reputation: 1464
Note that the incoming Congress/President can add to the national debt during the ongoing fiscal year through supplemental appropriations. The stimulus act is an example of this, it was passed in February 2009 with the first funds hitting a few months later. As such, it added to the debt increase for fiscal year 2009, regardless of the budget passed before. It would be rather inaccurate to attribute all of that gain to the previous president.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2011, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Harrison, OH
910 posts, read 1,675,871 times
Reputation: 383
That debt number is truly scary to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2011, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,440,440 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117 View Post
Note that the incoming Congress/President can add to the national debt during the ongoing fiscal year through supplemental appropriations. The stimulus act is an example of this, it was passed in February 2009 with the first funds hitting a few months later. As such, it added to the debt increase for fiscal year 2009, regardless of the budget passed before. It would be rather inaccurate to attribute all of that gain to the previous president.
That is very true. Supplemental appropriations apply in the same fiscal year they are enacted, and they do indeed add to the National Debt. Which is another reason why I used the total National Debt figures instead of budget amounts. Particularly since there has not been a budget passed by Congress since 2006. Since 2007 Congress has only enacted supplemental appropriations, continuing resolutions, and omnibus bills. When attempting to figure out the total budget (including all "off-budget" appropriations) for a given fiscal year it can get extremely complicated. It was much easier just to use the total National Debt instead.

Source:
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2011, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Central Ohio
10,832 posts, read 14,926,797 times
Reputation: 16582
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1987 View Post
That debt number is truly scary to me.
I made a little presentation on the good it would do to "tax the rich" which may be helpful for perspective.

I created the presentation and feel free to pass it along.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-14-2011, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,440,440 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1987 View Post
That debt number is truly scary to me.
Then count yourself among the sane and rational, because it should truly scare us all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:32 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top