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Old 04-22-2011, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
20,054 posts, read 18,253,575 times
Reputation: 3826

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driller1 View Post
Are you posting from your PC????

Does your PC take energy??
That doesn't count. One doesn't personally see the emissions from their PC, so it's all good. Forget that his PC actually operates on dirty coal.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,769,662 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driller1 View Post
You do not find home PCs materialistic??

You do not know they take energy??
PCs aren't materialistic, people are. Having said that, by definition, being materialistic is about being preoccupied with the material rather than with intellect or a spiritual aspect. In this case, it is you who chose to focus, not on the logic presented but on material.

Besides, using a PC isn't the definition of being materialistic anymore. As for using energy, well yes they do but the reason you're even making a part of your argument is, as I said earlier, extreme thinking on your part. Why else do you think that someone who strives for cleaner air and cleaner water and is a conservative about energy usage, and natural resources in general, must do without energy.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,665,850 times
Reputation: 24861
Do messages created and transmitted by PC's actually use more energy than creating the pens and paper used for written letters as well as the fuel used for transport?
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:33 AM
 
20,421 posts, read 12,341,203 times
Reputation: 10207
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Maybe corporate "green" is receeding but individual "green" is booming.
Farmer Markets are packed each weekend. I have friends that raise grass fed beef and cannot keep up with the demand and have a waiting list of people who want meat.

The "green" is there and very affordable. You just have to find it in the right place.
Corporate/Government is NOT the right place though.

Even Wallymart is giving up on "green" and going back to it's original store theme.
Then again, they tried to attract more upscale customers with money to buy these items and it failed to produce.
Pajamas Media » Wal-Mart Goes ‘Back to Basics’: A Cautionary Tale for the Left
one of the best posts I have seen on the subject.

and it runs directly opposite of what we get from Mr. Obama and his supporters.

It is GOOD to do right by the planet and it is GOOD to do it when it makes financial sense.

what is not good is hurting poor and middle income people for some pipe dream of a global green economy.

the global economy will move to a greener green without government intervention. it will move there at a faster pace without government intervention.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,329,907 times
Reputation: 27718
To give up all energy using devices is extreme and would put us back hundreds of years.
One has to be smart about it and use it where they can.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,329,907 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
one of the best posts I have seen on the subject.

and it runs directly opposite of what we get from Mr. Obama and his supporters.

It is GOOD to do right by the planet and it is GOOD to do it when it makes financial sense.

what is not good is hurting poor and middle income people for some pipe dream of a global green economy.

the global economy will move to a greener green without government intervention. it will move there at a faster pace without government intervention.
Thanks Ferd.

Another area is solar where government/corporate meddling will cost us.
I would like to put solar panels on my roof and hook up to the grid and sell back my extra electricity to the utility company (net metering).

But no..TPTB would rather create these solar and wind farms run by the utilities and then I have to buy my energy from them at a higher price.

Besides me not having any control..we now have a single point of failure if something happens to that "farm".
Plus you have all this additional infrastructure costs to bring that solar energy to my home. It just doesn't make sense from a logic standpoint.

"They" want us to go green..but they want us to use their version and implementation of green which ends up costing everyone more, not less.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:40 AM
 
20,421 posts, read 12,341,203 times
Reputation: 10207
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
If presenting/promoting an opinion/idea to others is to assume that the audience is stupid, you're doing just that. The President is in a leadership position who has to consider the welfare of the nation and think far into the future. People, OTOH, tend to live in the present, especially those who refuse to move forward. That doesn't make them stupid, it just makes them naive.
I would argue we often find stupid in very educated circles.

Take the current president for example. lets look at the reality of energy and technology and his drive to move us at great cost to a "green economy"

the fact is, based on 50 years of study we will very likely be using very cheep solar energy for most of our energy needs in 20 to 30 years. That is provided the government doesnt step in and mess everything up.

instead of recognizing these facts and working to bridge to that period with cheep energy now (energy is the source of almost all wealth in the current economy), Mr Obama (a very well educated man) has chosen to work at cross purposes and drive up the cost of energy NOW forcing moves to immature "green" technologies that will in the long run, cost more, stunt innovation and hurt the real economy

I call that monumentally stupid. and as per usual, this kind of stupid can only come from the very well educated.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
37,769 posts, read 40,907,997 times
Reputation: 62086
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
If presenting/promoting an opinion/idea to others is to assume that the audience is stupid, you're doing just that. The President is in a leadership position who has to consider the welfare of the nation and think far into the future. People, OTOH, tend to live in the present, especially those who refuse to move forward. That doesn't make them stupid, it just makes them naive.
Which piece of the post are you talking about? The NY Times says when it comes to saving money vs green products/services, saving money wins out in a recession. That's not an opinion. The NY Times is telling you in a two page article what is actually happening at the store.

The second part of the posts is me making fun of people who think they're saving the world with light bulbs but champion electric cars. They haven't made the connection with plugging in electric cars, the use of electricity to charge them and the president flat out saying under him, electricity will go through the roof at the same time he's promoting electric cars. You know, they drop the green household products to save a few cents but champion electric cars.

I gave him a pass on the light bulbs since he wasn't President when that cocakamamie law was passed.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:47 AM
 
20,421 posts, read 12,341,203 times
Reputation: 10207
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Thanks Ferd.

Another area is solar where government/corporate meddling will cost us.
I would like to put solar panels on my roof and hook up to the grid and sell back my extra electricity to the utility company (net metering).

But no..TPTB would rather create these solar and wind farms run by the utilities and then I have to buy my energy from them at a higher price.

Besides me not having any control..we now have a single point of failure if something happens to that "farm".
Plus you have all this additional infrastructure costs to bring that solar energy to my home. It just doesn't make sense from a logic standpoint.

"They" want us to go green..but they want us to use their version and implementation of green which ends up costing everyone more, not less.
Dude, we were posting at the same time.

you are absolutly right. the government messing around here is costing us and stunting innovation. the government dollars drive technology in the direction that politicians want it to go instead of in the direction that will bring the most benifit.

if they would get out of the way, and allow technology to develop oganically (as we see with computers) then we would achieve a really super green energy economy must faster.

solar at the home level makes all the sense in the world to guys like us who live with the microeconomics of real life. But to a politician who has every major corporation in the world (think General Electric), that never comes into play. the real money (read power) comes at the macro-level.

billions of dollars are in play for the big boys and they vie for it and ceed power to get it.

in the end the technology doesnt advance as it should, the poor and middle class are squeezed and the economy in general is stunted.

thank you liberal highly educated people who are "thinking of the welfare of everyone"

riiiiight
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,769,662 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
I would argue we often find stupid in very educated circles.

Take the current president for example. lets look at the reality of energy and technology and his drive to move us at great cost to a "green economy"

the fact is, based on 50 years of study we will very likely be using very cheep solar energy for most of our energy needs in 20 to 30 years. That is provided the government doesnt step in and mess everything up.

instead of recognizing these facts and working to bridge to that period with cheep energy now (energy is the source of almost all wealth in the current economy), Mr Obama (a very well educated man) has chosen to work at cross purposes and drive up the cost of energy NOW forcing moves to immature "green" technologies that will in the long run, cost more, stunt innovation and hurt the real economy

I call that monumentally stupid. and as per usual, this kind of stupid can only come from the very well educated.
The President has an opinion and a vision. You have an opinion and a vision. I have an opinion and a vision. That makes us all a hell lot more than stupid. To call someone, or a group, stupid without directly engaging in a logic-based debate is stupid, however.

Solar energy has been accepted as ONE of many solutions. And if you believe that the government always screws up something, you wouldn’t happen to support the government representatives who share your vision as screwing up now would you? We need visionaries running the government, not people crawling under a rock or looking at short term political/economic gains. People who recognize potential problems, yes, and energy crisis is GUARANTEED to be one.

Or, do you believe energy is cheap and forever?
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