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Yup. MANY Americans admired the NAZIs in the prewar days - and the truth is, there WAS much to admire (if you didn't look to close at their more nasty side). In addition, to many Americans even the nastier aspects were not necessarly completely wrong. Anti-Semitism was pretty common even here in the US. Folks didn't take it as far as the NAZIs did, but even here there were a LOT of folks who really disliked the Jews (even today it exists of course - but not NEARLY as much as it did back then). So yeah, your are right -Lindbergh WAS a hero but he MOST definitely shared things with the NAZIs (more so than Bush).
Ken
Yeah, don't look too closely at anything. For pete's sake, isn't that true of anyone or any group? I hear the Green River killer was pretty nice to his kids and went to church.
" Gary Ridgway confessed to killing 48 women over a 20-year period in the Seattle, Washington area. He was married, held the same job for 32 years, attended church regularly and read his Bible at home and at work."
Yeah, don't look too closely at anything. For pete's sake, isn't that true of anyone or any group? I hear the Green River killer was pretty nice to his kids and went to church.
" Gary Ridgway confessed to killing 48 women over a 20-year period in the Seattle, Washington area. He was married, held the same job for 32 years, attended church regularly and read his Bible at home and at work."
Pretty nice guy by your logic!
In reference to killers, we often hear "He / she didn't seem like the type." As if there was a type.
Yeah, don't look too closely at anything. For pete's sake, isn't that true of anyone or any group? I hear the Green River killer was pretty nice to his kids and went to church.
" Gary Ridgway confessed to killing 48 women over a 20-year period in the Seattle, Washington area. He was married, held the same job for 32 years, attended church regularly and read his Bible at home and at work."
Pretty nice guy by your logic!
No, that's NOT "really true of anyone or any group" - but it WAS true of the NAZIs. Mind you, you didn't have to look VERY HARD to see the nasty side of the NAZIs - and in TRUTH it was right out there for ALL to see (and pretty much the CORE of their mindset) - but keep in mind that back then there were a LOT of people who were a least PARTIALLY anti-semitic (quite possibly the MAJORITY of people even here in America). They were not generally anywhere NEAR the extreme of the NAZIs, but it WAS a pretty common view back then - just as most people were at least MILDLY racist (few Whites would have found it in ANY WAY acceptable for a Black man want to date their sister for example). It was just the way things WERE. This is where "taking off your 21st-century glasses" and putting youself "back in time" comes into play. By TODAY'S standards, MOST PEOPLE - including those in America would not stack up too well when it comes to racism (even the US military was not integrated and Blacks there were generally relegate to "menial" jobs such as cooks etc).
However, having said that, the NAZIs stand out as "a WHOLE LOT WORSE" - a FAR cry from "anyone or any group".
Ken
Last edited by LordBalfor; 05-05-2011 at 02:28 PM..
Neo-nazis are growing aren't they? So the sentiment is clearly shared by many. Aryan groups abound. They long for a "white" America. I am Irish - Italian so pretty much white and those people scare the holy sh*t out of me.
I went to Medford Oregon many years ago looking at possible places to live. My dad was entertaining moving there. Being from a mixed part of Los Angeles, that place was too monochromatic for me. Being back in Los Angeles, and raising a daughter, I am proud to say that she has friends and neighbors of all colors and this is the norm to her just as it was, and is, for me.
I fully realize this is completely anti-aryan and I couldn't be happier for it.
Yeah, same deal in my family. My mother is Irish/English and my dad was born In Lancaster County PA but raised in Germany - so my folks were on opposite sides of bombing campaigns. One of my sisters is married to a great guy who's father's family were Polish Jews and who's mothers' family came over on the Mayflower. My other sister is married to super sharp East Indian guy who was raised in India in a house with a dirt floor and no running water yet grew up to retire from Microsoft at age 40. One of my nephews is married to a sweet girl from mainland China and our son is married to a wonderful Chinese girl from the Philippines. Two of my wife's sisters are married to Hispanics and her niece is married to a Black man. I have a 1st cousin who's stepdaughter is Muslim living in the Middle East and another married into an enormous Italian-American family near NYC. I have extended family living on every continent except Antarctica. My family is about as American as you can possibly get - with practically every race and all the major religions.
In other words we are American MUTTS.
And I'm damn proud of it.
There is no point in lying about this a full year and a half before the election. Now if it were September 2012, doubters would definitely have a point.
Obama's approval ratings were in the crapper, gas is almost $5 a gallon in some places; all of a sudden we take out this evil despot, yet no proof, no evidence whatsoever and he's been "buried" immediately, so no one can prove otherwise. Is there really any proof whatsoever that Bin Laden was really killed yesterday?
Life in America is becoming more Orwellian every day, except for the part in 1984 that says "if there is any hope, it lies with the proles." I'm afraid our "proles" are pretty much worthless.
Lincoln was wrong. You can fool most of the people most of the time. At least the kind of people we're producing today.
There is no point in lying about this a full year and a half before the election. Now if it were September 2012, doubters would definitely have a point.
Actually now that Obama has this on his resume he can make people look back at this time and say, remember when I took out Osama vote for me, I get things done...It would be stupid to have done this during the period where voters needed to start making a choice then people would have been questioning it more for sure
Clearly this "know it all" knows FAR MORE than you.
Aside from that, NO - I don't get my "history" from Cecil Adams. I get it from 50+ YEARS of interest in WWII, from a childhood being raised in a military family and half of that childhood being spent near the front lines of the Cold War in Europe with a dad serving both on THIS side of the Iron Curtain AND the FAR SIDE in such a capacity that he was on the East Germany "hit list". I get it from having a great great uncle who was part of the Stauffenberg Bomb Plot against Hitler and a great-grandfather who knew (and performed dental surgery on) Czar Nicholas (being "gifted" in return with a Faberge cigarette case). I get it from a BA in history (alongside my BS in Computer Science) with special emphasis on WWII, and from an adulthood with CONTINUED interest in ANYTHING related to history and the WWII years (in particular). I get it from a HUGE collection of books on WWII and military history covering everything from Janes' Fighting Ships (1939 edition), to publications of personal diaries of common solders, to the writings of strategists such as Carl von Clausewitz and BH Liddell Hart (my personal favorite). Where do you get YOURS - from a bunch of political "hit list" web sites?
I could TEACH the subject of WWII - probably a LOT better than many college professors.
Yes ... you are a legend in your own mind ... and I'd pat you on the back, if your hand wasn't in the way
Aside all of your qualifications as an expert .... you surely must be aware of the fact that your "personal favorite" Liddell Hart was suspected of being a Nazi sympathizer, and suspected to be in possession of leaked information regrading the D-Day invasion, for which he circulated? And surely, you must also be aware of the fact that Winston Churchill demanded Liddell Hart's arrest, though MI5 decided to place him under heavy surveillance instead? This information was revealed in declassified MI5 files released in 2006. My, my ... you do have a strange attraction for, and a desire to apologize for Nazi sympathizers ... so your defense of the Bush crime family now can be viewed in proper context.
As for my sources, a good book would do you a world of good .... "War is a Racket" by Maj Gen Smedly Butler. Maj Gen Butler outlines the banking influence and profiteering nature of all wars ... naming names, places and profits, and dispelling the myths and propaganda and lies used as the false pretext for those wars. He also reveals a cabal of these criminals (many of whom had connections with Prescott Bush) who approached him with a proposal for him to lead an overthrow of the US Government!!!
But, according to you ... everybody was doin' it back in the good old days, aye? No big deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor
EVERYTHING in the Adams article is TRUE. EVERTHING.
I am NO fan of Bush - but the TRUTH is the TRUTH - regardless of my opinions regarding the political leanings or Presidential performance of GWB or ANY of the Bushes - and the truth is the elder Bush's involvement with the NAZIs was no more than that of MANY other American businessmen - and it does NOT imply an approval of the nastier aspects of NAZI policy.
No, "approval" of Nazi policy is not required to be complicit in assisting that policy .... and "those other guys were doing the same thing" is an awfully lame excuse for which a person of your age should know better than to lean on. But .... MOM .... he did it too .... was not a tactic that ever worked for me way back ... and it ain't gonna work for you now.
Prescott Bush was the Director Union Banking Corporation, Fritz Thyssen's main financial base of operations in the US. Thyssen was a key financier of the Nazis and Hitler's rise to power. And Prescott Bush was involved with three Thyssen owned US based enterprises that were seized by the US Government under the Trading With the Enemy Act .... save for his financial power and connections, Prescott should have been arrested and thrown behind bars for giving aid and comfort to the enemy ... an act of treason for which you want to dismiss as no big deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor
The NAZI's were a NASTY bunch (as bad as ANY that have EVER been) - but the fact is, it took a while before people REALLY understood that and for the years of the run-up to WWII there were MANY Americans - including heros like Charles Lindbergh - who had GREAT admiration for what the NAZI's had accomplished with their "miracle" economic recovery. While the US and the rest of the world were still deeply mired in the Depression, Germany under Hitler was BOOMING - and this made a deep impression on MANY US businessmen so it's NO WONDER US business was involved in Germany in those days. During those early days of the NAZI's folks tended to dismiss their more radical dialogue as simply "talk" - not realizing that the NAZI's really MEANT it. This was true not only of AMERICANs but even of JEWS in Germany itself - that's why so many of them ended up being trapped there and eventually exterminated.
Nazi Germany made no such miracles on it's own, or by the shear genius of Adolf Hitler .... Germany's rise to powerful prominence out of the ashes and destitute of it's conditions imposed upon it after defeat in WW I came from the same financiers funding the allies .... namely the Rothschilds ... with one of the principle agents already mentioned ... Fritz Thyssen, among others. An accurate understanding of history would reveal to you the true history of World War ... and not this Hollywood version you believe is the truth. This Hollywood version is fodder for the masses, and your expertise resides in nothing more than a greater embrace of that fodder than the average person. I'm sure you could recite in fine detail all of the documented nuances .... the inner political wranglings ... the secret memos and communiques ... all a bunch of front talk BS ... the underlying reality is rarely discussed or even understood. Banking ..... bankers create wars for profit ... they fund both sides ... they create enemies (Like Hitler and Nazi Germany) because without an enemy ... there is no war ... and without war, there are no war profits to be had. That's the HISTORICAL reality.
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Originally Posted by LordBalfor
You need to take off your 2011 glasses, FORGET what you know about what came LATER and put yourself in the position of people who ONLY KNEW what folks knew at the time - and AT THE TIME, Germany was NOT an enemy country. In MANY ways the situation was NOT all that different from our business view of China TODAY. China has a NASTY government that could at ANY POINT turn brutal against it's people or any country around it - in fact it's ALREADY oppressing many of it's people and others around it (Tibet). And yet American businessmen are FLOCKING to do business with China. In that regard it was a similar situation in the 1930's. In THOSE days Germany was NOT an enemy nation. It was a TRADING PARTNER.
No ... you need to be open to new information if you want an accurate view of history. They say a Mind is just like a Bank ... it serves no useful purpose unless it is open! More often than not, the true facts of history take decades to uncover, more often than not revealing an entirely different story than was originally presented. Victors always write the history books to their advantage, placing themselves in the best possible light, and relying on such sources for your "knowledge" doesn't make you well informed. More like well deceived.
You sir, are not operating on a base of accurate knowledge ... you are operating on a "belief system" rooted in ideological dogma and myth, created for that purpose. This makes you only an expert in memorizing war propaganda.
In fact, Operation Paperclip is proof enough that these false ideological excuses for war are just facades .... war is about money & power ... lots of it .... which is why we treated those nasty Nazis like honored guests after the war ... bringing them over to our country and setting them up in comfort to serve our military industrial complex.
Surely you don't want to suggest that our government officials and businessmen were ignorant of their "Nazi Nastiness" after the war too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor
Finally, you should keep in mind that many of these companies - including Bush's - had had business relationships with Germany BEFORE the NAZIs even came to power - and those relationships were not about to suddenly disappear overnight - especially considering the fact (already mentioned) that MOST folks thought the NAZIs worst traits were "simply talk" at the time (it was NOT just talk - but THEY didn't KNOW that at the time).
Again ... excuses and apologies ... this is the rhetoric offered by criminals attempting to defray their complicity in crimes, and NOTHING MORE. These companies ... particularly the Thyssen companies for which Prescott Bush was a major player actually FINANCED the Nazis and Hitler ... neither of which could have come to power without that assistance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor
I'm NOT saying the elder Bush was a particularly nice guy (nor was the elder Kennedy for that matter) - but the fact is, his involvement was not ALL THAT MUCH MORE than that of MANY American businesses. Bush bashers make a big deal over the fact that the senior Bush as part owner of UBC but neglict to point out that he had ONE SHARE - out of a total of FOUR THOUSAND. I'm sorry, but that is NOT a major involvement -
Stop with the nonsense ... either you are fabricating or you really are clueless ... which is it? Bush was the Managing Director of UBC ... hardly a one share, sideline, small time non-entity as you want to claim. That is total BS! You should now be familiar enough we me to not engage such tactics again. So save the BS for someone it has a chance of working on. It won't fly here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor
and (as I said) Bush was not alone in doing business with the Nazis. GM (in particular) was very heavily involved in business dealings with the NAZIs - moreso than Bush. The difference was GM was considered to be a "critical" company to the US and so when the time came that we went to war with Germany many of that companies prior dealings with Germany were simply ignored.
Much like you are attempting to ignore the actual facts today. Yes indeed ... the Powers That Be did more than just ignore some inconvenient facts ... they actually placed certain areas as off limits to actual bombing of Germany by allies to protect those company interests ... some of which were active in the production of the Nazi war machine. Talk about conflicts of interests .... but in reality ... these "decision makers" are NEVER actually EVER on a battlefield or in harms way ... so it's a little easier for them to agree to protect their financial interests over the concern for the war or for the boots on the ground.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor
As I said, Bush DID have dealings with NAZI Germany but MUCH of the "evidence" of his wrongdoings is either blown out of proportion or (in some cases - such as his "photo" with Hitler - completely FABRICATED). I don't care HOW MUCH you dislike the politics of a particular politician or his family - you don't FABRICATE evidence - and the fact is, much of the "evidence" against the elder Bush is simply FABRICATED. Just because something is on the web DOESN'T make it TRUE (even if it's WIDESPREAD).
Ken
What a fraud ... the information I speak of can be found in the US Library of Congress, and the US National Archives .... not some conspiracy blog as you want to insinuate ... and certainly not sourced to a man ... your "personal favorite" for which Churchill wanted arrested for revealing D-Day invasion plans. And there is a lot more to Liddell Hart that I haven't bothered to go into here, as he is a side issue ... and a bit player who himself suffered delusions of grandeur .... thinking that his writings of war tactics were actually adopted by, and the tactical foundation of Nazi Blitz tactics. He too was a legend in his own mind which may partially explain your attraction.
And there is a WHOLE LOT MORE regarding the anti-American activities of the Bush clan over and above Prescott Bush ... a WHOLE LOT MORE. They could easily be labeled the most damaging single family for which the United States of America has ever suffered .... not the only ones, for sure, but quite possibly the very worst or the worst.
Don't know if the September 11, 2001 WTC attack was a inside job government sponsored false flag or not but yes this Bin Laden recent death is very suspicious.
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