Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Where are all the libs like Meson and other who went crazy attacking those of us who knew this information. They all said that this info was not correct and it did not lead us to OBL.
Thanks to President Bush we got OBL and the left wingers just cannot bring themselves to be honest enough to give the man the credit he so deserves.
This entire thing has proven that liberals have a real problem with following the facts and the truth.
The hate of GW Bush is shining so much that it tells me in their heart they know GW gets the credit for a job well done.
Everyone does not feel the same, i do have lib friends, and dem friends, who told me they both feel that Bush's Policies helped in this operation.
I have Dem friends, that think something is fishy with this whole operation, everyone entitled i guess to their own opinion.
You know hatred to me is a very strong word, cananot really hate someone you don't truly know, if you do not know them personally, how can you hate. I do not like Obama, still he is not my fav person, props to him on a operation well done. But i don't hate him, hate His policies, and the way he acts, but do not hate the Man. This operation i do give him credit for. But saying that, i do not give him credit for a good economy, a good housing market, unemployment, lousy policies, economy truly in the tank. High gas prices and going to get higher, for these things i do not give him a passing mark. Border issues he gets a F.
Some intell but the realities favor Obama and Dems
Some key information was gathered from the interrogations while Bush was President, but the village idiot didn't know what to do with the information. It took someone like President Obama to define the PRECISION required to complete this task. Bush was running in circles chasing his tail.
Recap:
Bush. Drops a trillion dollars to nation-build in Iraq and Afghanistan without the slightest chance of getting bin Laden. Failure by Bush and this is a direct reflection on the flawed political judgment and instincts of Republicans. They had intel, but were clueless.
Obama. Must clean up Bush's collosal mess, while zeroing in on bin Laden. Successful on both accounts. Obama's presidency thus far is a resounding success. He has accomplished more in three years than both Bushes and Reagan combined. Credit to the Dems for superior political judgment and instincts.
It has nothing to do with punishment and everything to do with protecting people residing in the United States.
Well, then I must've misunderstood why you picked the word "warrants". Simply a matter of protecting potential victims of future crimes, then?
Quote:
Dane in LA are you a counter terrorism expert? You obviously feel comfortable stating that other counter terrorism experts are wrong.
I dare say opinions are divided among anti-terror experts as well. There's a historical perspective and - dare I say it? - an ethical one.
History pretty much shows 3 things: Information extracted by torture is horribly imprecise, the most effective interrogators didn't even use harsh language and whenever a culture falls for the temptation, you end up with 2 groups of broken people: Victims and torturers both tend to end up with severe psychological imbalances.
Ethically, of course, there's supposed to lines that societies just don't cross. We used to hang people for waterboarding prisoners. I'm still astonished it's even a debate in 21st century America.
You make a good point that the CIA will not give you a straight answer. That, however, only makes Fox news' inference, which they gave with such certainty even more absurd.
At no point did I say, or even imply that Waterboarding was not was not used to capture OBL, that is your own faulty inference. If you actually follow the logic to its reasonable conclusion you will realize that given the information and our knowledge about the source it is not possible to make any inferences as to what particular role waterboarding may or may not have played.
My purpose was not to establish that waterboarding did not lead to OBL, but rather to point out that only someone who lacks formal logic skills could come to the conclusion with certainty that waterboarding did lead to the OBL raid.
From the same story, "But I'm also saying that, you know, the debate about whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question."
Seems like that's a "yes" and the dots in question are definitely connected, but it also seems he wants to leave some legal wiggle room.
Keep in mind KSM has yet to go on trial.
If evidence to be used against him can be linked to anything but coffee and donuts interrogations, it will be tossed out when he goes to court.
Of course the CIA secret prisons in Poland and Romania are another example of enhanced interrogation techniques being used and key information being obtained. Connect dots as you please.
"Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden’s most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed’s successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania."
First strands on bin Laden gathered in CIA prison - BostonHerald.com (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view/20110502first_strands_on_bin_laden_gathered_in_cia _prison/ - broken link)
I hope the AP story carried by The Boston Herald isn't too conservative a news source for you.
From the same story, "But I'm also saying that, you know, the debate about whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question."
Seems like that's a "yes".
It sounds more like an I am not going to tell you, but i'll leave the door open to speculation. Especially considering he prefaces that statement by saying that there were a multitude of sources. Once more he never actually says waterboarding, and there were many enhanced interrogation techniques used. With that said I could see how someone who wants to believe in torture could ignore the vast amount of ambiguity and assume, albeit unreasonably, that waterboarding was definitely what lead to OBL.
If evidence to be used against him can be linked to anything but coffee and donuts interrogations, it will be tossed out when he goes to court.
Of course the CIA secret prisons in Poland and Romania are another example of enhanced interrogation techniques being used and key information being obtained. Connect dots as you please.
"Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden’s most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed’s successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania."
First strands on bin Laden gathered in CIA prison - BostonHerald.com (http://news.bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view/20110502first_strands_on_bin_laden_gathered_in_cia _prison/ - broken link)
I hope the AP story carried by The Boston Herald isn't too conservative a news source for you.
Oh I am not denying the CIA uses questionable methods. Rendition is common knowledge. I am simply saying its not reasonable to suggest with certainty what the results of those methods are unless of course you are a bigwig in the CIA. The differing quality of the inferences about the information between the Fox article and the Boston Herald article is huge. (One says definitively Waterboarding lead to OBL raid, the other says initial information for raid gathered in CIA prison. The latter is far more reasonable then the former.)
Oh I am not denying the CIA uses questionable methods. Rendition is common knowledge. I am simply saying its not reasonable to suggest with certainty what the results of those methods are unless of course you are a bigwig in the CIA. The differing quality of the inferences about the information between the Fox article and the Boston Herald article is huge. (One says definitively Waterboarding lead to OBL raid, the other says initial information for raid gathered in CIA prison. The latter is far more reasonable then the former.)
No, what you're saying is that you got caught with your pants down trying to pin FOX News and its viewers to the notion that waterboarding wasn't used based on your own interpretation of the report. And now that you've been challenged, you're still dodging and weaving and trying to weasel out of your first post. That's what it really comes down to. The bottom line is that the impetus is on YOU to define what Panetta said since it is YOU who challenged Fox News' interpretation of those words. All you've said is that Fox News viewers lack reading comprehension skills and that Panetta didn't really say waterboarding was used. In other words, you've said exactly nothing.
No, what you're saying is that you got caught with your pants down trying to pin FOX News and its viewers to the notion that waterboarding wasn't used based on your own interpretation of the report. And now that you've been challenged, you're still dodging and weaving. That's what it really comes down to. The bottom line is that the impetus is on you to define what Panetta said since it is YOU who challenged Fox News' interpretation of those words.
Epic Fail.
Once again you demonstrate your absolute lack of critical reading skills. Though I doubt it will help you I suggest you reread post #17 to appreciate my 'interpretations' regarding waterboarding.
Do you understand the difference between the following statements and how the latter one has a bunch of additional speculation in it, or is that too much for your mind to grasp? Just give up its obvious you are bad at critical reasoning.
First strands on bin Laden gathered in CIA prison.
And
Waterboarding lead to OBL raid.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 05-04-2011 at 12:47 AM..
Once again you demonstrate your absolute lack of critical reading skills.
Do you understand the difference between the following statements and how the latter one has a bunch of additional speculation in it, or is that too much for your mind to grasp? Just give up its obvious you are bad at critical reasoning.
First strands on bin Laden gathered in CIA prison.
And
Waterboarding lead to OBL raid.
I've read every one of your posts. And in each of them you backtrack a little more. You questioned the Fox News article. Nothing wrong with that, except you took it upon yourself to try to tear down that article with your own interpretation of what Panetta said. Unfortunately for you, your only recourse was that Panetta never actually used the word "water-boarding"....so in your far out rationale you deduced from that that waterboarding could not be determined as the actual method of interrogation. The lack of critical thinking skills actually begins with your inability to understand Panetta's carefully worded statement. Your sole inference is the lack of a single word, and you've built your entire argument off of that. But yet you fully believe that you are accurate based on this interpretation. Critical reasoning is NOWHERE to be found in your OPINION (because that's all it is). So we get to watch you back track, post by post, as more evidence mounts against your original claim.
My advice to you would be to pull your head out of your ass and re-read Panetta's words. What he is saying is quite obvious, except to you of course.
I'll ask again..Random STUDENT of what? Certainly not the "critical reasoning" that you think you portray.
I've read every one of your posts. And in each of them you backtrack a little more. You questioned the Fox News article. Nothing wrong with that, except you took it upon yourself to try to tear down that article with your own interpretation of what Panetta said. Unfortunately for you, your only recourse was that Panetta never actually used the word "water-boarding"....so in your far out rationale you deduced from that that waterboarding could not be determined as the actual method of interrogation. The lack of critical thinking skills actually begins with your inability to understand Panetta's carefully worded statement. Your sole inference is the lack of a single word, and you've built your entire argument off of that. But yet you fully believe that you are accurate based on this interpretation. Critical reasoning is NOWHERE to be found in your OPINION (because that's all it is). So we get to watch you back track, post by post, as more evidence mounts against your original claim.
I'll ask again..Random STUDENT of what? Certainly not the "critical reasoning" that you think you portray.
My sole inference is that we don't have enough information to know either way what the role of waterboarding was in this so it is unreasonable to say "waterboarding lead to OBL." That is it there has been no back tracking save for in your head. The thing about carefully worded responses is that they are carefully worded precisely so that you cannot draw a clear inferences based on them and you can only speculate.
For example this is essentially akin to me saying, I like a new Chinese restaurant in town. I am going out for dinner tomorrow. You know 1. That I like the Chinese restaurant, and 2. I am going out for dinner tomorrow, but it would be unreasonable to say I am going out to the new Chinese restaurant for dinner tomorrow. It may be plausible, or even likely, but it is not something you can say with a measure of certainty. Just like here we know waterboarding was used, and that detainees, who may have been, or were waterboarded provided information for the raid. We cannot say without additional information that waterboarding was what infact definitely lead to the raid. If you cannot grasp that basic kernel of logic you are hopeless.
In regards to your question I am a Law student at a top university. I am also quite drunk because I recently finished exams, but that doesn't mean I don't know something's illogical when I see it.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 05-04-2011 at 01:20 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Some intell but the realities favor Obama and Dems
