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I think integration has to happen naturally. Forced anything isn't a good idea as Nomander alluded to. For example, they tried the bussing experiment in Cleveland in the late 70s and early 80s, and white people left for the suburbs in droves! It doesn't make it right, and it's unfortunate, but it happened.
Me personally, I don't care what races or nationalities live around me. Diversity can be very good. And I do like learning about other cultures which I think all of us could stand to learn a thing or two about each other. What I DO care about are questionable characters that may bring down the quality of the neighborhood that I live in regardless of skin color! As I always say, a**holes are a**holes no matter what! I make no distinctions when it comes to that.
Jim Crow segregation was NOT better than what we have now.
What we have now is a country in which whites are demonized, physically attacked and denigrated by popular culture - and the media and government refuse to even acknowledge this is happening. In many ways blacks were better off under segregation: they had stronger families, a large number segregated black schools were successful (for example, Dunbar HS in Washington, D.C.), and the black middle class was a real, achievement based middle class, not the government and affirmative action created middle class we see today.
"Segregation, and the laws that enforce it, depend on the premise that one group is inferior to another. There is no other reason to segregate. And because that premise is the ONLY reason to segregate groups of people, it means that there is NO such thing as separate but equal. The act of segregation, or sorting people into groups, is an assertion of inequality all by itself."
The premise is that one group is different from another. As I said in my first post, given freedom of choice, most people will self-segregate.
"Desegregation is not an attempt to force people to interact involuntarily, it is a recognition of the effects of decades of segregation laws that were mandated by the state, and an attempt to reverse those effects."
That's the kind of code-talk the federal courts used as an excuse to do social engineering based on the Coleman Report in public schools. Sorry, it's just not true.
"Desegregation policies can be heavy-handed, and even counter-productive. But they are NEVER, EVER worse than Jim Crow laws. NEVER."
Screaming your assertions does not make them true. Most scholars who have seriously studied the subject agree that "desegregation policies" (in truth, forced integration) destroyed the public schools. Check out, TheBurden of Brown and Race and Education by Raymond Wolters from the University of Delaware and Disaster by Decree by Lino Graglia from the University of Texas.
What we have now is a country in which whites are demonized, physically attacked and denigrated by popular culture - and the media and government refuse to even acknowledge this is happening. In many ways blacks were better off under segregation: they had stronger families, a large number segregated black schools were successful (for example, Dunbar HS in Washington, D.C.), and the black middle class was a real, achievement based middle class, not the government and affirmative action created middle class we see today.
"Segregation, and the laws that enforce it, depend on the premise that one group is inferior to another. There is no other reason to segregate. And because that premise is the ONLY reason to segregate groups of people, it means that there is NO such thing as separate but equal. The act of segregation, or sorting people into groups, is an assertion of inequality all by itself."
The premise is that one group is different from another. As I said in my first post, given freedom of choice, most people will self-segregate.
"Desegregation is not an attempt to force people to interact involuntarily, it is a recognition of the effects of decades of segregation laws that were mandated by the state, and an attempt to reverse those effects."
That's the kind of code-talk the federal courts used as an excuse to do social engineering based on the Coleman Report in public schools. Sorry, it's just not true.
"Desegregation policies can be heavy-handed, and even counter-productive. But they are NEVER, EVER worse than Jim Crow laws. NEVER."
Screaming your assertions does not make them true. Most scholars who have seriously studied the subject agree that "desegregation policies" (in truth, forced integration) destroyed the public schools. Check out, TheBurden of Brown and Race and Education by Raymond Wolters from the University of Delaware and Disaster by Decree by Lino Graglia from the University of Texas.
Segregation is an assertion that one group is inferior to the other. I don't care what your issues with desegregation are, or how concerned you are about schools. A society that asserts that people are inferior to others because of race, religion, ethnicity or any other reason is a flawed and unjust society. Regardless of all the problems with desegregation, the importance of recognizing how bad segregation is outweighs them.
And I wasn't screaming. I was emphasizing.
Let me point out, YOU are the one praising Jim Crow laws. Laws that were designed to oppress a significant number of America's citizens. YOU are asserting that we, as a society, benefited from oppression, and suffered when we tried to remove that oppression.
And I don't care how many books or articles or studies you use to defend your assertion, because you are absolutely wrong. We are a better society for wanting to put an end to oppression, to avowing that all men are created equal, and for trying to teach children that the color of their skin is just that, pigmentation, and nothing else.
Segregation is an assertion that one group is inferior to the other. I don't care what your issues with desegregation are, or how concerned you are about schools. A society that asserts that people are inferior to others because of race, religion, ethnicity or any other reason is a flawed and unjust society. Regardless of all the problems with desegregation, the importance of recognizing how bad segregation is outweighs them.
And I wasn't screaming. I was emphasizing.
Let me point out, YOU are the one praising Jim Crow laws. Laws that were designed to oppress a significant number of America's citizens. YOU are asserting that we, as a society, benefited from oppression, and suffered when we tried to remove that oppression.
And I don't care how many books or articles or studies you use to defend your assertion, because you are absolutely wrong. We are a better society for wanting to put an end to oppression, to avowing that all men are created equal, and for trying to teach children that the color of their skin is just that, pigmentation, and nothing else.
I offer facts and references - you reject them and assert your opinion backed by nothing but your opinion.
The courts began the process of reviving racial classification in schools by ignoring the distinction between desegregation and integration. Desegregation is a restriction on government power. The state may not use race as the basis for school assignments. Desegregation permits racial separation as long as it is not compelled by the government. Integration, by contrast, is a state-mandated result. The government overrides personel and parental choice in order to make sure that different racial groups get the same education and obtain it together. Desegregation establishes the principle of choice, whereas integration seeks to compel a particular result.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 clearly endorsed desegregation rather than integration , and clarified the distinction. Yet in the case of schools, courts came to consider desegregation truly accomplished only if whites and blacks were actually using the facilities in rough proportion to their numbers in society. In other words courts ignored the distinction between securing a right and guranteeing its excercise. Courts navigated around the seemingly clear language of the law to coerce integration in the name of enforcing desegregation, and to use the terms interchangeably to disguise this transition. Martin Luther King, jr understood this.
I offer facts and references - you reject them and assert your opinion backed by nothing but your opinion.
And you are entitled to do that.
Good day to you.
You offer facts and references that prove that white people enjoyed advantages over black people when they oppressed black people. Wow! That took some doing, I'm sure.
The bottom line in this discussion is quite simple.
Do you believe that some groups of people are inferior to other because of the color of their skin? If yes, you do believe that, then clearly you believe in the advantages of segregation.
If you don't believe that, if you believe that all races of people are your equals, then you understand that segregation is an assertion of inequality, and whatever advantages it might afford part of a society, the disadvantages outweigh those advantages.
We were a segregated society for many decades. There is going to be a cost to removing the legal and social barriers that were constructed as part of segregation. But we are a better society for recognizing the incalculable harm that results from segregation, not just to the oppressed but also to the oppressor.
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