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That they are white, or do you go beyond that? Not just white, but Northern European? Are brown-eyed people allowed? What about someone with a dark tan?
There's a third option I wanted. Stop forced integration. That means go back to neighborhood school districts based upon school census and geography, not race. Doing this may result in schools that are majority one race or another but it will be by location, not racial segregation as an official policy. This would also reduce school operating cost, more awake students, and more community pride for their neighborhood schools. Attach the education budget to the number of students so each school gets the same budget.
Again, you fail to connect any belief in superiority with a desire for segregation. You lose the argument. I prefer to be among my own kind - even if they aren't as smart, attractive, or nice as others - because that's my free choice (or should be my free choice).
Do you believe government should choose your marriage partner?
The current arrangement doesn't force you to associate with anyone you don't want to. Nobody is forcing you to be friends with a black guy or to marry a black woman or whatever.
The idea that government services (which are pretty obviously distinguishable from things like your friends or who you marry) should be segregated to mollycoddle a few blackophobic rednecks is pretty lol.
It doesn't matter if you think white people are superior or not, I don't really care. Government services are provided to everyone equally. If you don't want your kids sitting next to some other race in school, thats fine, school them yourself.
What we have now is a country in which whites are demonized, physically attacked and denigrated by popular culture - and the media and government refuse to even acknowledge this is happening. In many ways blacks were better off under segregation: they had stronger families, a large number segregated black schools were successful (for example, Dunbar HS in Washington, D.C.), and the black middle class was a real, achievement based middle class, not the government and affirmative action created middle class we see today.
I always laugh when I see or hear the bolded above so I will do so once again LOL!!!
That said a lot of black people do feel that forced integration (busing, not Brown v. Board which actually was about desegregation, not forced integration) was not positive for black Americans since it placed black children at times into the hands of uncaring white teachers and many feel that those students received a subpar education due to that. I as a black person do not agree with busing either but I do support desegregated neighborhood schools and even school choice through the use of vouchers. I also support Charter schools and the community having a say about curriculum, books, teacher qualifications, and the buildings that house schools. None of this has anything to do with making laws to seperate our society based on race, which is what segregation was in this country.
But about the middle class blacks before 1955, it is also funny that you mentioned that it was a "real, achievement based middle class." You are basically stating that any black American that has achieved middle or upper class status since 1955 has done so due to government and Affirmative Action, it is funny to me since many conservatives believe that these sorts of programs do not benefit black Americans in any way so interesting of you to take the opposite POV and actually to admit that these sort of programs were needed in order to account for the hundreds of years of legal slavery and discrimination that black Americans have faced in this country.
I personally am middle class and black and have never benefitted from Affirmative Action, I know many black Americans who are like me who are middle class. It is also funny that the middle class for all Americans is shrinking in today's economic environment even though social (government) programs have expanded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter
....blacks (and others) had no reason to wait for whites to come around when the constitution GUARANTEED us the same rights as any white man. This is the real problem you have....you wanted blacks to be patient and wait for white acceptance. That way, the power of acceptance remains in your hands while we wait for table scraps.
Unreal how transparent some people can be.
This basically sums up this whole thread. You want minorities, black people in particular to sit by and suffer, not enjoying the constitutional freedoms of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness until you feel like giving consitutional rights to natural born citizens, many of whom have ancestry whose roots have been in America longer than yours and who had a hand literally in the creation of this country.
Public schools are public, if you want to segregate yourself and your children, send them to a private school. Anyone should be able to go to whatever public school they want to in their district/zone and not be forced to go to a "white school" or a "black school" but a neighborhood school in their district. Desegregation and Brown v. Board was not about busing like a PP mentioned, it was about not allowing students to attend their neighborhood school based on race and about how seperate schools that were supposedly "equal" were not in actuality.
The current arrangement doesn't force you to associate with anyone you don't want to. Nobody is forcing you to be friends with a black guy or to marry a black woman or whatever.
Wrong. Employers are forced to hire blacks - often less qualified than competing whites, sometimes totally incompetent - to avoid ruinous lawsuits based on the egregiously flawed "disparate impact" doctrine. So employers are forced into association with people they really don't want in their company. As are the other employees.
Wrong again. White girls and women are constantly besieged by black boys and men who want dates and sex from them. If they refuse they are called racists, b*t%hes, etc. The black suitors typically announce to everyone else that the white woman who refused them used the N word or is prejudiced. This happened to my own niece in high school, where blacks called her the "prejudice b*t%h" for refusing to go out with them. The news is full of stories about white women beaten or murdered for refusing to go out with a black.
I wouldn't be surprised if a white woman reading this post isn't nodding right now in agreement because she's had exactly this experience.
So the "current arrangement" certainly does force whites into association with blacks they don't want to be near.
This won't last. Whites are starting to push back. Get ready.
"The idea that government services (which are pretty obviously distinguishable from things like your friends or who you marry) should be segregated to mollycoddle a few blackophobic rednecks is pretty lol."
I don't advocate segregating government services, including schools, although, as I previously stated, I believe segregated schools were superior to the mess we have now. I do advocate freedom of choice and neighborhood schools, which would lead, in most cases, to self-segregation.
"It doesn't matter if you think white people are superior or not, I don't really care. Government services are provided to everyone equally. If you don't want your kids sitting next to some other race in school, thats fine, school them yourself."
That's nice of you to say, but the people who make the decisions want to force me to put my kids in integrated schools.
And government services are not provided equally. Blacks are given massive preferences in school admissions and government hiring, and the Obama administration just announced new efforts to "increase diversity" (i.e., hire more blacks, along with a few women and other minorities). This is code for anti-white discrimination.
But, to repeat. Whites are starting to push back. Example: Tea Party.
So again, get ready. To employ my favorite Betty Davis line: Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
That they are white, or do you go beyond that? Not just white, but Northern European? Are brown-eyed people allowed? What about someone with a dark tan?
The claim by DiogenesofJackson that segregated neighborhoods themseleves were backed by federal and state laws is true...to a point. What he ignores is that these laws reflected the desires of the vast majority of white people (who made up the large majority of the population) to live in white neighborhoods, and that when the laws were ruled invalid, people found ways to continue to live amongst their own kind. That's human nature and there is not only nothing wrong with it, it's healthy. In other words, absent any pressure from the laws, and given true freedom of choice, most people self-segregate.
But we don't live in a free country anymore. We live in a diverse country.
And diversity trumps freedom.
Some people here think that's a good thing.
I don't.
It's odd that you frame your argument in the language of "freedom" (whatever you mean by that), and I'd be predisposed to make a lengthy argument that the United States never has been (nor possibly will never be) a free country. but I'll save that for another time, another thread.
It's not that I left anything out in my post intentionally. It's a given that the laws were stacked against nonwhite peoples in the Jim Crow era and that white people preferred these laws -- especially FHA type restrictions that essentially locked African Americans out of low-interest, guaranteed home loans. I think everyone knows this -- or at least everyone who has been curious about the nation's segregated past probably has discovered that there were all kinds of residential restrictions and silly rules for home ownership (and some of these still exist).
But what I find particularly troublesome about your post is your viewpoint about freedom. If you read the paragraph that you wrote, quoted above, it's quite clear that your view of freedom belongs only to the dominant group of people -- in this case, white people. In other words, you favor a style of republican government (no reference here to a political party) that only benefits the whims of the majority. That's fine, but how will your viewpoints alter (if they will at all) when white people are no longer the dominant racial group in this country? What will you believe when nonwhites outnumber white people? Is it a simple majority rules form of republicanism at that point? Because if so, that's extremely problematic for you because at that point, arguably, nonwhites can vote in representatives who make punitive laws and legalized racial restrictions on white people. I'm not saying that would happen, but in your view, your majority rules view of republican government, you'd have to be okay with racial restrictions applied to white people if the majority of the people agreed with it and signed off on it through the political process.
Certainly you too, if you're a reasonable person, would find this problematic.
This is why white majority laws that locked nonwhites out of full participation in the political process, housing, job opportunities, educational opportunities was problematic during the Jim Crow era. It's because a majority rules type of government enables a public to be tyrannical toward minority groups -- in the case of U.S. history, this was applied to nonwhite peoples (and some people who had white skin, like the Irish, but were not considered white because the definition of what that meant has changed over time).
In other words, your view of the American style of government is called herrenvolk republicanism, which means that the master race or the dominant social or racial group has all of the "freedom" and has a right to be tyrannical toward the minority group(s) or "inferior" races.
To put it another way, in your view of the American style of government, certain groups can band together and vote away freedoms and rights guaranteed by the very government itself that enables your participation in the political process.
Certainly you find this problematic -- well you do if you are a reasonable person.
On another note, perhaps people tend to segregated themselves with their own racial groups because of the cultural power of past racism, especially as has been displayed in this country. How on earth can any American fully escape racism? It's so ingrained that if you're white, then you act like X; if you're black, then you have Z qualities; if you're Asian, then your predisposed to act like Y; and so on and so on. Maybe people tend to segregate themselves by race because this ideology has so much cultural power that people think it's the "right" thing to do?
The more I read C-D, the more I come across these strange viewpoints and opinions in which people here (Americans, I assume) who claim that the United States is not a racist country and never has been a racist country. While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, the idea that the U.S. has never been a racist nation populated by racist people is downright delusional. It belongs in the realm of 2+2=5.
I always laugh when I see or hear the bolded above so I will do so once again LOL!!!
Laugh all you want. Facts are facts. Ignore them if you want. You won't be laughing long.
"But about the middle class blacks before 1955, it is also funny that you mentioned that it was a "real, achievement based middle class." You are basically stating that any black American that has achieved middle or upper class status since 1955 has done so due to government and Affirmative Action, it is funny to me since many conservatives believe that these sorts of programs do not benefit black Americans in any way so interesting of you to take the opposite POV and actually to admit that these sort of programs were needed in order to account for the hundreds of years of legal slavery and discrimination that black Americans have faced in this country."
The modern black middle class is an artificial construct of affirmative-action, government favoritism, and out and out discrimination against whites. Anti-government conservatives are forced to say that because their ideology of government ineffectiveness trumps facts. The facts are, that government favoritism is largely responsible for the so-called "black middle class." (It's really a government welfare class jumped up to middle class standards of living, mostly on the tax dollars of whites.)
"I personally am middle class and black and have never benefitted from Affirmative Action, I know many black Americans who are like me who are middle class. It is also funny that the middle class for all Americans is shrinking in today's economic environment even though social (government) programs have expanded."
Most middle class blacks don't know if they have benefitted from affirmative action. They all think they "got there on their own."
Think again. The statistics of college admission, government (and now) private hiring are overwhelming. Affirmative action has played a huge role in the creation of today's black middle class.
Deny it all you want. It's still true.
"This basically sums up this whole thread. You want minorities, black people in particular to sit by and suffer, not enjoying the constitutional freedoms of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness until you feel like giving consitutional rights to natural born citizens, many of whom have ancestry whose roots have been in America longer than yours and who had a hand literally in the creation of this country."
Don't tell me what I want. I'll tell you. I want blacks to take responsibility for their own lives and stop blaming their troubles on whitey. That dogdon't hunt no more. Blacks have been the recipients of the largest amount of outside aid, from government and private philanthropy, of any group in the history of the world and they're still at the bottom of American society.
That's not the fault of whites, or of society. Blacks need to look in the mirror to find who is at fault.
I doubt many blacks have been in this country longer than my family, since we got here in the 17th century. My ancestors are the ones who carved out the wilderness, fought Indians, French, British, Germans, Mexicans, Indians again, and conquered this country. The only ones we didn't do so well against were the Yankees, but that's OK, 'cause now a lot of Yankees are coming over to the right side when it comes to race and taking responsibility for your own actions.
I doubt many blacks have been in this country longer than my family, since we got here in the 17th century. My ancestors are the ones who carved out the wilderness, fought Indians, French, British, Germans, Mexicans, Indians again, and conquered this country. The only ones we didn't do so well against were the Yankees, but that's OK, 'cause now a lot of Yankees are coming over to the right side when it comes to race and taking responsibility for your own actions.
In addition to the other laughable assertions you've made, I'm wondering...didn't blacks who found themselves in America in the 17th century also have to carve out wilderness, fight Indians, Brits, Germans, and aid whites' conquering of this country?
Didn't whites conquer this land due in part to assistance (oftentimes forced help) from blacks?
Your latest post is rather informative about your agenda, which is rather antiquated. Care to join us in the 21st century?
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