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I think everyone should work to stop stereotyping, in regards to all groups. It obviously does more harm than good.
There are rational and irrational stereotypes. An irrational stereotype would be "all black people are thieves" whereas a rational stereotype would be "white guys are more likely to be child molesters."
The former is rooted in ignorance and is therefore fixable. The latter will never cease to exist unless the natural laws of probability do as well.
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Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
I can't give you the answer you're looking for. I've been molested by a white man...and a black woman. So honestly, no I really wouldn't assume the white man was more likely the molester. I would really regard both with equal probability.
Case in point. That's because your experience leads you to that conclusion. But what if you had a different personal experience? What if you had no experience with it at all, and only knew the statistical probabilities? You'd go by what you knew (or thought).
Do you not see the hypocrisy in your statement? You are essentially saying that your personal experience while expecting others to provide "evidence" when relaying their personal experience. So, because you have never seen something, it doesn't exist? Nevermind the fact that there have been numerous lawsuits, police reports, penalties for civil rights violations, boycotts, etc., which show that this is something that occurs even in this day and age.
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Originally Posted by Moth
What evidence?
Well, since this is such an epidemic, there must be scores of recorded incidents, police reports, state and federal Department of Justic actions, boycotts, lawsuits, penalties for civil rights violations, etc. Instead I am presented with online heresay and told to accept it despite visiting thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of stores in my lifetime and seeing little if any of this.
Actually, it is not - it is your personal opinion, for which you have provided no supporting evidence.
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Originally Posted by Moth
That the race card is saturating our society is pretty much beyond dispute. We have reached a level of hysteria where opossing a (black) President's reckless fiscal policies makes one akin to Bull Connor rather than simply desirous of a more prudent path in government spending.
Again, this is your speculation, opinion, interpretation, etc. In other words, these are not factual statements, supported by evidence, as you've demanded from other posters. So, excuse me if I don't believe your hysteria.
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Originally Posted by Moth
When the mob tells me I am bigot because I desire prudent government spending, what exactly am I supposed to think of some people who come online and claim they were "stared at" in a store?
There are rational and irrational stereotypes. An irrational stereotype would be "all black people are thieves" whereas a rational stereotype would be "white guys are more likely to be child molesters."
The former is rooted in ignorance and is therefore fixable. The latter will never cease to exist unless the natural laws of probability do as well.
Are there more white male child molesters because there are more white men? Or are there a higher percentage of white men that are child molesters when compared with other demographics? Are we talking raw numbers or percentages here? And even if there are a higher percentage of white male molesters within the general white male population when compared with other demographics, is it fair to assume that every white male is more likely to be a molester?
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Case in point. That's because your experience leads you to that conclusion. But what if you had a different personal experience? What if you had no experience with it at all, and only knew the statistical probabilities? You'd go by what you knew (or thought).
Based on my experiences, I should hate all sighted people. I've been turned down jobs, assumed to be practically brain-dead, thought of as clueless, disorientated. I've been patronized, told I should just stay inside my house, etc. I've had sighted people tell me I shouldn't bother with college, invade my personal space, clap their hands in front of my face, talk about me like I'm not in the room. Would it be fair for me to regard sighted people with disdain? Should I be rude to every sighted person I meet because of my past experiences?
We are all relying on our experiences and anecdotes in this thread to come to the conclusions we do. But there is a difference between being finding patterns and actually acting on such trends with absolutism. Let's say that black people steal 90x more than white people. Pretend for a minute that statistic is real and proven. Even if it were, it still wouldn't justify assuming every black person will steal with absolute certainty. Sure, stereotypes have their uses, and help us function in the world. We have to make assumptions all the time, ones as basic as "flipping the switch will turn the light on." But it becomes dangerous when we take social stereotypes, such as race-related ones, and apply them to every member of a race. And that's exactly what many shop clerks--black, white, any other race--often do in regards to black customers. They take real or alleged statistics about black people and allow that to dictate how they are going to treat black people in general. That isn't fair, and that's true irrationality. Even when a high correlation is proven, it's not rational to assume a causative relationship.
Are there more white male child molesters because there are more white men? Or are there a higher percentage of white men that are child molesters when compared with other demographics? Are we talking raw numbers or percentages here? And even if there are a higher percentage of white male molesters within the general white male population when compared with other demographics, is it fair to assume that every white male is more likely to be a molester?
Based on my experiences, I should hate all sighted people. I've been turned down jobs, assumed to be practically brain-dead, thought of as clueless, disorientated. I've been patronized, told I should just stay inside my house, etc. I've had sighted people tell me I shouldn't bother with college, invade my personal space, clap their hands in front of my face, talk about me like I'm not in the room. Would it be fair for me to regard sighted people with disdain? Should I be rude to every sighted person I meet because of my past experiences?
We are all relying on our experiences and anecdotes in this thread to come to the conclusions we do. But there is a difference between being finding patterns and actually acting on such trends with absolutism. Let's say that black people steal 90x more than white people. Pretend for a minute that statistic is real and proven. Even if it were, it still wouldn't justify assuming every black person will steal with absolute certainty. Sure, stereotypes have their uses, and help us function in the world. We have to make assumptions all the time, ones as basic as "flipping the switch will turn the light on." But it becomes dangerous when we take social stereotypes, such as race-related ones, and apply them to every member of a race. And that's exactly what many shop clerks--black, white, any other race--often do in regards to black customers. They take real or alleged statistics about black people and allow that to dictate how they are going to treat black people in general. That isn't fair, and that's true irrationality. Even when a high correlation is proven, it's not rational to assume a causative relationship.
Yes, it can get ridiculious to the point where you can be a millionare, pull up in a limosuine, and the clerk acting on hardwired ignorance, will still assume your in the store to steal something...
Are there more white male child molesters because there are more white men? Or are there a higher percentage of white men that are child molesters when compared with other demographics? Are we talking raw numbers or percentages here?
Percentages. I'm pretty sure this is true, but whether it's true or not is irrelevant, I'm talking hypothetically here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
Based on my experiences, I should hate all sighted people. I've been turned down jobs, assumed to be practically brain-dead, thought of as clueless, disorientated. I've been patronized, told I should just stay inside my house, etc. Would it be fair for me to regard sighted people with disdain? Should I be rude to every sighted person I meet because of my past experiences?
As I already said, I'm not talking absolutes. There's a difference between a stereotype based on probabilities and a stereotype that you automatically apply to all members of a group. One is logical and based on probabilities, one is just stupid.
If you were to be slightly more wary of sighted people based on your experiences, would this not be warranted? I mean if sighted people are generally more disrespectful to you than non-sighted people, you have every reason to be more cautious around them. You're taking it to the extreme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
We are all relying on our experiences and anecdotes in this thread to come to the conclusions we do. But there is a difference between being finding patterns and actually acting on such trends with absolutism. Let's say that black people steal 90x more than white people. Pretend for a minute that statistic is real and proven. Even if it were, it still wouldn't justify assuming every black person will steal with absolute certainty.
I never said it would though. I said there was a certain probability involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
Sure, stereotypes have their uses, and help us function in the world. We have to make assumptions all the time, ones as basic as "flipping the switch will turn the light on."
We all stereotype, probably hundreds of times a day without even thinking about it. Not necessarily on race, not even necessarily having to do with humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
But it becomes dangerous when we take social stereotypes, such as race-related ones, and apply them to every member of a race.
Again, that was my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
And that's exactly what many shop clerks--black, white, any other race--often do in regards to black customers. They take real or alleged statistics about black people and allow that to dictate how they are going to treat black people in general. That isn't fair, and that's true irrationality. Even when a high correlation is proven, it's not rational to assume a causative relationship.
If I believed this were the case then I'd agree. But there is no way you'll convince me that a sizable portion of store owners make generalizations about 100% of any group. You'd have to be a complete and total idiot to make that kind of generalization.
Yes, it can get ridiculious to the point where you can be a millionare, pull up in a limosuine, and the clerk acting on hardwired ignorance, will still assume your in the store to steal something...
Human nature is definatly flawed...
what nut tree did you fall off you make stuff up for a living or what? I agree people wrongly assume things based on looks and such but would never make up lies to prove my point
what nut tree did you fall off you make stuff up for a living or what? I agree people wrongly assume things based on looks and such but would never make up lies to prove my point
If you want to dialogue with me, have a bit of respect...
I don't need to make anything up...your response just shows how limited your life experience is...
Do a little living first please, before you step into my world...
If you want to dialogue with me, have a bit of respect...
I don't need to make anything up...your response just shows how limited your life experience is...
Do a little living first please, before you step into my world...
fair,tell me more about the guy pulling up in a limo and being watched for shoplifting and if true I will give you a little respect.until then I say you made it up and deserve nothing and are just stirring the pot. pushing 60 and you are the one stepping into my world
fair,tell me more about the guy pulling up in a limo and being watched for shoplifting and if true I will give you a little respect.until then I say you made it up and deserve nothing and are just stirring the pot. pushing 60 and you are the one stepping into my world
I'll go you one better....Oprah (who we all agree has more money than ALL of the White people we know) was famously refused entry into the Hermes store.
Percentages. I'm pretty sure this is true, but whether it's true or not is irrelevant, I'm talking hypothetically here.
As I already said, I'm not talking absolutes. There's a difference between a stereotype based on probabilities and a stereotype that you automatically apply to all members of a group. One is logical and based on probabilities, one is just stupid.
If you were to be slightly more wary of sighted people based on your experiences, would this not be warranted? I mean if sighted people are generally more disrespectful to you than non-sighted people, you have every reason to be more cautious around them. You're taking it to the extreme.
I never said it would though. I said there was a certain probability involved.
We all stereotype, probably hundreds of times a day without even thinking about it. Not necessarily on race, not even necessarily having to do with humans.
Again, that was my point.
If I believed this were the case then I'd agree. But there is no way you'll convince me that a sizable portion of store owners make generalizations about 100% of any group. You'd have to be a complete and total idiot to make that kind of generalization.
My experiences with sighted people definitely make me "not surprised" when a sighted person makes some stupid remark. But it doesn't lead me to assume new sighted people I meet will necessarily be ignorant. Likewise, I imagine black people aren't surprised when white clerks suspect them, but the white clerk assuming they are there to steal is taking it to a new level.
That's exactly what a lot of store clerks are doing by hovering over black customers--they are taking it to the extreme. Not all of them, but enough for black shoppers in general to notice that they get hovered over and suspected much more than the average white shopper.
Last edited by nimchimpsky; 08-25-2011 at 07:10 PM..
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