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I would have loved growing up without my parents announcing my gender to the world. Even with all the political debate it sparked, I think that would have been easier than the crap I had to go through because I was non-gender-conforming based on my biological sex. I have a very masculine energy, and constantly get mistaken for male no matter what I wear. I've gotten he'd and sir'ed while wearing tight-fitting t-shirts and skirts. There's obviously a reason people are viewing me as male no matter what I do with myself physically and I think they are much closer to the truth of how I feel compared to when they rely on what my ID or medical records say.
I think that's precisely what the parents here are trying to get at, even if they aren't doing it in the best way possible. I fail to see it as a liberal/conservative thing and see it much more as a gender-identity thing. There are transgender and transsexual people across the world, in countries that are both extremely liberal and extremely conservative.
All that said, I think these parents are in a way indirectly buying into gender construct by the way they reject it. I don't feel the need to express my gender through clothing because I just am my gender no matter what I wear. Hopefully with time these parents will also realize that liking trucks isn't being male and liking dolls isn't being female. Gender goes beyond clothing and toys. By letting their child define their gender through clothes and toys, they equate clothes and toys with gender, which is what the whole construct of gender is based on to begin with.
Last edited by nimchimpsky; 06-02-2011 at 07:36 AM..
Quote from your post: And just for the sake of discussion, the sexualization of children is actually much more harmful to children than removing sexual markers. Those cute little dresses, those charming hairbows, the ribbons and earrings, they aren't for the child. They're for adults. As a little girl, I just wanted to be able to play with all the other kids. All the gewgaws just were in the way. I'm sure you can't wrap your mind around that, can you?
As for your desires or personal likes and dislikes .. to each his own, as long as no one is being harmed, and that includes both gays and straights. Your comments just seem to defend the indefensible and I assumed it was agenda driven, versus ignorance driven.
You have a reading comprehension problem. "Those cute little dresses, those charming hairbows...", when I said they were for the adults it should have been clear from the context that dressing up little girls like dolls is not for the child. It's to please the adults. Little girls, like little boys, like to PLAY. And when you have a ton of gewgaws to deal with you can't play. YOU read your own kinky ideas into that passage. Which tells us a lot about you. And the fact that you infer an agenda tells me that YOU are the one with an agenda, buddy.
Whatever your warped mind wants to believe. I won't lose any sleep over it.
The way you see it is completely valid Sour. For the vast majority of people, sex and gender are the same thing--and that's because their sex and gender "match" for them. It feels right.
That's not the case for everyone, though, and it's important not to impose what is real for you onto the whole world. People who feel there is a distinction to be made between sex and gender have just a valid opinion as you do.
For many people who feel a discord between their sex and gender, it's their personal experience that sex and gender are not one and the same. When this "mismatch" happens to someone, they have no choice but to consider sex and gender as separate phenomena.
That's not what I'm suggesting at all. Some reading comprehension needed.
What I'm suggesting is that the male/female binary doesn't account for all possibilities regarding gender.
Now you are splitting hairs .... earlier I said the vast majority, with rare exceptions. The exceptions don't change the fundamentals ... such as an hermaphrodite, which in humans is an extreme genetic abnormality.
The statement, humans have two arms and two legs is a fact ... are some genetically abnormal humans born with less? Yes. Should we change the classification of humans as bipedal just because there are those born without legs?
You have a reading comprehension problem. "Those cute little dresses, those charming hairbows...", when I said they were for the adults it should have been clear from the context that dressing up little girls like dolls is not for the child. It's to please the adults. Little girls, like little boys, like to PLAY. And when you have a ton of gewgaws to deal with you can't play. YOU read your own kinky ideas into that passage. Which tells us a lot about you. And the fact that you infer an agenda tells me that YOU are the one with an agenda, buddy.
Are you talking to me?
Children love to play, really? Yes they do, and they also need to learn about rules and roles and what is expected of them. Then when you grow up, you are responsible and take care of yourself, instead of living on other people.
Children learn from many things and one of the main ways they learn is repetition. Doing, saying, the same thing, the same way. Then they stay on track. Children don't have a long attention span. Doing things different all the time confuses them, they don't see the 'right' way, because they don't know the difference.
Tell you what, go on a camping trip and do just what your 3 year-old wants to do. If he wants to play with the Mama Bear and her three cubs, go for it. Swim in the raging river over a waterfall, looks like fun! Play with those Africanized Bees, whoopee.
Be like Rosie Odonnell and get your kids tattoos in Mexico, infection goes away.
Children love to play, really? Yes they do, and they also need to learn about rules and roles and what is expected of them. Then when you grow up, you are responsible and take care of yourself, instead of living on other people.
Children learn from many things and one of the main ways they learn is repetition. Doing, saying, the same thing, the same way. Then they stay on track. Children don't have a long attention span. Doing things different all the time confuses them, they don't see the 'right' way, because they don't know the difference.
Tell you what, go on a camping trip and do just what your 3 year-old wants to do. If he wants to play with the Mama Bear and her three cubs, go for it. Swim in the raging river over a waterfall, looks like fun! Play with those Africanized Bees, whoopee.
Be like Rosie Odonnell and get your kids tattoos in Mexico, infection goes away.
Uh, no, I wasn't talking to you. The link showed who I was talking to.
Children need to learn to live by stereotypes? That's the kind of rules you think children should learn. So if someone is from Arkansas, they shouldn't pursue an education, because the stereotype is that Arkansans are uneducated redneck hillbillies.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Children need to learn what stereotypes apply to them and stick to those stereotypes. And that's because............?
Oh, and by the way, I have played with Mama Bear and her cub.
Uh, no, I wasn't talking to you. The link showed who I was talking to.
Children need to learn to live by stereotypes? That's the kind of rules you think children should learn. So if someone is from Arkansas, they shouldn't pursue an education, because the stereotype is that Arkansans are uneducated redneck hillbillies. Like Bill Clinton?
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Children need to learn what stereotypes apply to them and stick to those stereotypes. And that's because............?
Oh, and by the way, I have played with Mama Bear and her cub.
Because it works. Raised my kids, both went to, completed college. Their children are learning the same way. I have been teaching kids sports (and life) for 34+ years, how about you, Copernicus?
Because it works. Raised my kids, both went to, completed college. Their children are learning the same way. I have been teaching kids sports (and life) for 34+ years, how about you, Copernicus?
You are insulting my intelligence while advocating that teaching children to live according to stereotypes is the right and proper thing to do???????
You have a reading comprehension problem. "Those cute little dresses, those charming hairbows...", when I said they were for the adults it should have been clear from the context that dressing up little girls like dolls is not for the child. It's to please the adults. Little girls, like little boys, like to PLAY. And when you have a ton of gewgaws to deal with you can't play. YOU read your own kinky ideas into that passage. Which tells us a lot about you. And the fact that you infer an agenda tells me that YOU are the one with an agenda, buddy.
Of course it is my reading comprehension issue, rather than your writing.
In any case the subject isn't about your writing or my reading skills ... and I noticed how you ignored my direct answer to your question.
And rather than continue this one-up-manship, let's focus .... I'll restate again my position .. and you may then point out to me specifically where the fault in logic lies.
By the parents making an issue out of their children's gender/sex such that they are (by making it some deep secret), they are casting elements of controversy and confusion around the children which complicates the children's social interaction with the rest of the community, and particularly as it pertains to their interaction with their peers.
And as I said, most children seek acceptance ... and don't want to be viewed as "different". They want to fit in .. not isolated or separated from their peer group. And some children can be quite cruel in their penchant for pointing out "differences" ... that a child might be overweight ... or ... maybe because a child wears eyeglasses .. etc. So it doesn't take a freaking genius to anticipate how casting an air of confusion over the child's damned gender could create the landscape for unnecessary ridicule from their peers. "Oh look ... here comes "it" ... is IT a boy or is it a girl ... oooh it's a secret ....(laughter)" And if you don't understand this, then you aren't nearly as smart as you think you are.
At the heart of the matter here is an extreme over rationalization on the part of the parents regarding some perceived negative influence coming from the outside world for simply knowing whether the children are boys or girls ... and your FAILED attempt at justifying or "explaining" the merits of it is just another example of the rarity of common sense.
These parents are engaging in their own little social experiment, using their own children as the subjects. And whether their motive for doing so is a calculated, agenda driven one, or simply a product of pure ignorance and extremely skewed logic, makes little difference at the end of the day, as far as the impact to the children are concerned.
And this issue really is amazingly idiotic ... the immense number of issues ... are they to be dressed in "neutral" colors and style of clothing ... should their hairstyle be short or long or medium ... are their names also gender neutral ... how should they respond if asked if they are a boy or a girl? It's mind boggling ... and it's creepy.
Just the fact that someone might ask ... "are you a boy or a girl" is a troubling matter ... most normal boys or girls would be disturbed by being confused with the other gender ... how emasculating is it for a boy to be confused with or being asked if he is a girl Jesus!!!!
This isn't even close to being a subjective matter of opinion ... your defense of this lunacy, and the apparent agreement from others here is frightening.
There are zero merits for the parent's argument ... and a laundry list of issues against it. And your defense of it is truly astounding.
And when I said this type of thinking is a byproduct of the liberal-homosexual agenda ... I mean it. Because no one makes more of the issue of gender than do homosexuals ... heterosexuals really don't spend much time analyzing gender because we have no confusion in this area ... we know what gender we are, and we like it that way. It's always the gender confused that want to "normalize" their confusion in order to help themselves feel more normal, psychologically.
Those on the left so preoccupied with this issue of gender and orientation want the rest of the world to agree that gender confusion is normal, and the best way to address this issue is for everyone else to at least be neutral, but similarly confused would be better yet. This really is the position .... similarly ... because a few people don't have umbrellas, we should all fold up ours on those rainy days and get wet too.
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Jesus!!!!
