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I've been meaning to remark on some of your posts, but have been busy scratching my head, and addressing ridiculous questions, which I should really just ignore.
You seem to have been recipient of a plateful of life challenges to deal with, and I admire your fortitude and attitude demonstrated in some of your posts. You seem like an enlightened soul ... and that is usually the case with people facing significant hurdles in life ... only the courageous old souls tend to agree to take on such things starting out. (yes I am insinuating that we do make those decisions ahead of time).
I agree. I believe all hardships are chosen ahead of time by our souls. I also believe God doesn't give us any more than we can take. As a result, giving up is never an option.
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And I agree with your premise that one's sexual orientation is a genetic one, and only a dim witted idiot would persecute or punish someone for being born the way they are, or deny them the right to express it .. to have relationships of their choosing, etc.
I'm glad we agree on this point too.
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At the same time, those who have a particular nature or desire to express personal behaviors or traits that are outside the basic framework of societal norms have an equal responsibility to demonstrate the same degree of consideration for society's wishes and comfort and they expect society to offer them. Respect and consideration is a two way street, and will never work in one single direction.
I can totally understand what you're saying here and I agree. That's why I believe that transgender people should be expected to abide by dress codes in terms of formality as much as anyone else. I do wear men's clothing but I don't show up to work in sweatpants just because I'm transgender and I wouldn't do that if I were a teacher either. I would abide by the school's policies just like any other teacher or student. I follow the same policies at my workplace as anyone else, and don't see my transgender identity or my need for accommodations as an excuse for why I shouldn't have the same respect for others as everyone else.
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In the case of the male teacher who wishes to wear a dress while teaching class, he expects accommodation that he is unwilling to offer others. He expects society to conform and bend to his desires, while ignoring the desires of society, by offering his political middle finger.
I do agree that a man who does not identify as female and who is wearing a dress just to provoke people is doing just that--offering his political middle finger. Great expression by the way. Such a man deserves to be accommodated just as much as he's accommodating others--that is, not at all.
That said, I think the case is different for a biologically male teacher who genuinely identifies as transgender and has felt more female than male every day of her life. I realize now that I should have been more clear about that in the beginning. The way the thread title sounds implies a male teacher, who apart from one day showing up in drag, identifies as male, or who likes to dress en femme as a hobby, but for whom it's not an integral part of his identity. There is a world of difference between Mr. X, who just shows up in a flamboyant dress one day to push people's buttons, and Ms. ____ , who is known to all as female, and has male anatomy, but that no one knows or cares about. If Ms. ____ is female-identified in pretty much all aspects of her life (I would say all but it's almost impossible to be seen 100% as the opposite sex by parents and doctors) then I think it would be appropriate for her to carry her gender-identity over to her job. She would show up in female attire from day one, introduce herself as a woman, and continue to teach as a woman throughout the entire year. And of course, beyond reflecting her psychological gender rather than her biological sex in her attire, she should be subject to the same dress code as all the other teachers. If all the other female teachers are wearing dresses and skirts, she should be too.
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And, persons like you who have faced very real challenges, including the difficulties of dealing with near blindness ought to be as disgusted with this blatant display of selfishness and whining as anyone.
Again I can see what you're saying and agree with you that selfishness benefits no one. However, denying trans people the ability to choose what they wear to reflect their gender identity is equally selfish. It is very painful for a transgender person, someone who identifies socially as the opposite sex at a very deep level, to be forced into their biological sex role.
I've been pressured tremendously to be more girly, and I've also had to pass as sighted while visually impaired/blind. Growing up, my family always tried to get me to wear skirts and dresses, and tried to get me interested in makeup and manicures and so on. I was significantly visually impaired and completely undiagnosed until age 12, so I had to pass as a sighted person. I didn't tell my parents I was going totally blind for a year as well, because I was afraid they wouldn't take it well--and they didn't. They denied my blindness to the bitter end, and discouraged me from using my cane or doing anything that "made me look blind".
Please try to understand this in the best way possible. I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it. As someone who has been totally blind and is transgender, being forced into a socially female role causes me just as much anxiety as being forced to go without my white cane as a blind person was. Both involve not being sure of my next step, not feeling comfortable in my own skin, being forced to conform to the point that it's just downright oppressive.
Anyone can only do both for so long before they have to finally come out and be honest to themselves and others. Ironically enough, once it's out in the open, it's no longer an issue. A transgender person can pass successfully as the opposite sex socially without sacrificing their being, just as a blind person can function successfully in society once aided with a white cane. That's why I think transgender people should be allowed to pass as their true gender in a way that does not impose on others--that is, by passing as their desired sex without having to inform everyone of their trans status.
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Those who inject such controversy for the sake of making political statements dilute the legitimate claims of others who may suffer real discrimination, and such actions tend to generate a hostile and less receptive environment for public hearing of legitimate grievances. Frankly, people get sick and tired of having agendas jammed down their throats ... and that doesn't serve anyone's best interests.
I totally agree with you here too. I am not nearly as outspoken about transgender issues in real life as I am on CD because I don't want to ram an agenda down people's throats. In real life, I suck it up and wear a dress to church with my grandma cause it makes her happy. I don't enforce pronouns on anyone either. I get called he, dude, sir, young man, girl, miss, ma'am, she, him, her, and sometimes both in the same conversation. I don't correct people in passing because I feel like it's my burden to carry and not something I should put on someone else. I cringe when my transgender friends insist on correcting every single person on the street.
I express my opinions in spaces where they are welcome or where debate is the purpose of the discussion, such as on CD. But in real life I just go about my daily activities without turning every interaction into a political statement. In real life, I only express my preferences when asked and appreciate when people respect my preferences, but don't enforce them either. I appreciate that my boss respects my preferences, for example, and it's actually a relief to me that it's such a non-issue for her, but if she ever "slipped up" I wouldn't correct her.
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This man may consider himself some type of pioneer, forging a new day of deliverance for subjugated cross-dressers ... but what he is actually doing is creating a controversy without legitimate merit.
I've heard all kinds of crazy claims ... but to suggest that a requirement for a man to wear pants to work is somehow creating undue emotional stress on him is preposterously absurd ... and those defending his actions are eiher pushing an agenda or are imbeciles.
I would agree with you that it's absurd if we're talking about a man who is a man every day except one day when he shows up to work in a dress. But for a "man" who is really a woman in all ways but one--I would say that it is absurd to force her to suppress such a fundamental part of herself just for other people's comfort, especially when she can be herself in a quiet, respectful way. A transgender person can be transgender without it ever being an "issue". A transgender person doesn't even need to inform anyone (save dates and doctors) of her trans status and can pass quietly as a woman (or man) in society.
Even though we disagree on some issues, I really have a lot of respect for you as a person. I appreciate that you express your opinions with thought rather than just blindly spouting vitriol as so many other posters on CD do. I really enjoy your contributions.
Last edited by nimchimpsky; 06-04-2011 at 07:39 PM..
Perfect example .... brilliant! Force all ten's of thousands of teachers across the nation to wear a uniform of unisex nature in response to the extreme case of a gender confused man who wants to wear dresses to work?
How bout you keep your extremism to yourself, and quit imposing yourself on a society that wants no part of it? You cannot force acceptance ... it only summons rejection.
A person may love chocolate .... but if you try to jam it down their throats, they will resist.
You can't see that, because you are blinded by your own brand of extremism.
You are right, you cannot force acceptance. But, you can pave the way for it to be welcome. By allowing people to be who they are, you open the door for acceptance. I accept people for who they are, I can usually see when someone isn't being true to themselves. do you think people should be allowed to be who they want to be?
You are right, you cannot force acceptance. But, you can pave the way for it to be welcome. By allowing people to be who they are, you open the door for acceptance. I accept people for who they are, I can usually see when someone isn't being true to themselves. do you think people should be allowed to be who they want to be?
What you fail to realize is that "allowing people to be who they are" can be offensive, or worse, to others. For instance, Hitler and the radical muslims want to kill westerners and kill all jews - they are just being who they are - right?? Nudists might want show up to work naked - just being who they are - right? Finally, some fat, guy with a 5 oclock shadow and heavy body hair wants to wear a mini-skirt and high heels in front of first graders - just being who he is - right? -NOW do you get it??
What you fail to realize is that "allowing people to be who they are" can be offensive, or worse, to others. For instance, Hitler and the radical muslims want to kill westerners and kill all jews - they are just being who they are - right?? Nudists might want show up to work naked - just being who they are - right? Finally, some fat, guy with a 5 oclock shadow and heavy body hair wants to wear a mini-skirt and high heels in front of first graders - just being who he is - right? -NOW do you get it??
No, I don't get your argument, since you're comparing mass murder to nudity and cross-dressing... completely invalid argument, as I think all sane people oppose mass murder, but at least SOME of us don't mind nude bodies and/or men & women wearing what they choose. Who determined men couldn't wear dresses, anyway? I'm a woman who wears pants, so it only seems fair!
Lots of things are offensive to people, but if they're not actually hurting anyone, who cares? If we start outlawing everything that offends people, we literally won't be left with any freedoms whatsoever. Should we outlaw farting, heavy perfume, and eating with your mouth open? Those sure offend me! Genocide, on the other hand, is not only offensive but illegal - not to mention, their goal is the death of millions. Amazing you'd even draw a comparison here, and (especially as I'm a Jew) it actually kinda scares me.
I don't know but there is probably a dress code... much like I can't wear a dress (not that I would want to) at WORK.... if you are at work then you wear work-appropriate outfits... you don't see me wearing S&M outfits at work... cause there is a dress code... you can crossdress on you own time...
I can't really answer, but if I had kids, I would do what I can to make sure my child wasn't exposed to such nasty debauchery.
Sorry, just not enlightened enough I guess.
Clearly not. Do you think other cultures, where dresses/skirts are common for men, are also committing nasty debauchery? What about the days of Shakespeare, when men always played the woman's roles - complete with dresses and wigs. And I guess most modern women are nasty, since we often wear pants. Oh, the horror!! Seems we've gone backwards in terms of enlightenment, huh?
Why are Americans so obsessed with gender roles & clothing, anyway? Does having a seam between your legs make you a man? And conversely, does NOT having a seam make you more of a woman? Hmmmmmm.
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Do you think other cultures, where dresses/skirts are common for men, are also committing nasty debauchery? What about the days of Shakespeare, when men always played the woman's roles - complete with dresses and wigs. And I guess most modern women are nasty, since we often wear pants. Oh, the horror!! Seems we've gone backwards in terms of enlightenment, huh?
