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Let the Farmers get H2A/H2B visas for these illegals so they can work in this country.
The programs are there and in place. Why are they not being used ?
That's the question you ought to be asking.
Ever try to help an illegal get a green card?
It takes a lot longer than it takes for a field to rot.
And why should farmers be those responsible for the card in the first place? A visa is a function of government, not farming.
How many 'real' Americans have ever set foot on a farm now, much less grown and harvested a crop? How many 'real' Americans even know what it takes to harvest a modern farm?
How many 'real' Americans even think of becoming farmers?
For sure, very many illegals know how to farm- lots and lots of them. That's why they come here. They have the skills and stamina. They also know how to make a farm profitable. That is the simple reason we need them, and as long as farming exists, there will always be an need for farm workers.
We can run 'em out, but we do so at our peril.
What do we want? Are we going to become dependent on other nations to feed us, or do we want to keep feeding ourselves? The choice is ours- we can either make our ag immigration work or we can keep up things as they are now. We made it easy for ag workers to come in the past, and we can do it again.
Running them off does no good for anybody who eats.
Won't happen. The logistics don't even work out.
This is deep rural country. You gonna drive over 2 hours each way from the city out to "the farm" and do hard labor for 8-10 hours ?
I live in farm country. I don't have a car. I can't afford one. I ride a bicycle 10 miles through the farms to get to work. On the way I pass dozens of cars that the farm workers used to get to the field they are working that day. They are out there in the scorching sun with shirts tied around their heads hoeing or doing whatever they're doing out there. The big machinery only comes out at harvest time. A lot of the work still gets done by hand. The logistics don't have to work out. The logistics will never work out to an anglo. The proof, however, is in the pudding and they are eating it and I am not, and even if I offered to till, hoe or irrigate for free there isn't a farm owner in the U.S. that would allow me to do anything on his property.
Won't happen. The logistics don't even work out.
This is deep rural country. You gonna drive over 2 hours each way from the city out to "the farm" and do hard labor for 8-10 hours ?
Guess ya never heard how many hours "city folk" sit in rush hour traffic.
We don't have "deep rural country" anymore. Most cities have farm country within a few miles.
Farmers could always send out buses to collect workers if they don't have cars.
Then they could provide decent pay, decent hours, proper rest breaks, sanitary bathrooms, eating facilities, safety from herbicides and other dangers ....ya know , those evil REGULATIONS!
There is
NO
reason a worker in America (the ALLEGED Greatest Country in the World) should be treated like a slave with less comfort than a beef cow.
How many 'real' Americans have ever set foot on a farm now, much less grown and harvested a crop?
Plenty
How many 'real' Americans even know what it takes to harvest a modern farm?
Plenty
How many 'real' Americans even think of becoming farmers?
As many as think of becoming anything else one can become in this thing we call life.
For sure, very many illegals know how to farm- lots and lots of them. That's why they come here. They have the skills and stamina. They also know how to make a farm profitable. That is the simple reason we need them, and as long as farming exists, there will always be an need for farm workers.
Illegals don't only come here to farm. Many do construction, many are domestics, many work in fast food and other retail, many are in janitorial work, still others drive vehicles... they just hustle like every other blue collar joe. There is nothing that makes them particularly good for agricultural work. You are part of the problem if you think this.
We can run 'em out, but we do so at our peril.
What do we want? Are we going to become dependent on other nations to feed us, or do we want to keep feeding ourselves? The choice is ours- we can either make our ag immigration work or we can keep up things as they are now. We made it easy for ag workers to come in the past, and we can do it again.
I'm not sure how you get from "we can run them out" to "are we going to become dependent on other nations..." I see you too believe the lie that Americans won't do farm work. Americans can and did do farm work very well, thank you. There are Americans making $35K that are living out of their cars because after taxes, health insurance, etc the $800+/mo that landlords want for a one bedroom is out of the question. Last year an American woman was busted for having 23 illegals in a three bedroom house. They were each paying $200/mo to use a bed for 8 hours. Americans may have to live like this one day but this is the first wave of post recession casualties. I mean... where is your empathy? Do you want to sleep in a bed that two other strangers sleep in? If it is anathema to you, why are you willing to relegate other humans to such a fate, even if they were once Mexican nationals? Anyone who labors should be paid a fair wage. Borders should be sovereign. Why have them otherwise. If there is no upside to living within the 'protection' of U.S. borders then there is no point to being an American. If anyone who wants to be exploited can come into the U.S. with the tacit complicity of the U.S. government to take work from U.S. citizens there is no point for 'real' Americans to remain here. Mexicans are here because their government cannot or will not offer them opportunity. Increasingly, Americans find themselves similarly disenfranchised. Where should disenfranchised Americans migrate to? I am (perhaps foolishly) hoping for an answer.
How many 'real' Americans have ever set foot on a farm now, much less grown and harvested a crop?
Plenty
How many 'real' Americans even know what it takes to harvest a modern farm?
Plenty
How many 'real' Americans even think of becoming farmers?
As many as think of becoming anything else one can become in this thing we call life.
For sure, very many illegals know how to farm- lots and lots of them. That's why they come here. They have the skills and stamina. They also know how to make a farm profitable. That is the simple reason we need them, and as long as farming exists, there will always be an need for farm workers.
Illegals don't only come here to farm. Many do construction, many are domestics, many work in fast food and other retail, many are in janitorial work, still others drive vehicles... they just hustle like every other blue collar joe. There is nothing that makes them particularly good for agricultural work. You are part of the problem if you think this.
We can run 'em out, but we do so at our peril.
What do we want? Are we going to become dependent on other nations to feed us, or do we want to keep feeding ourselves? The choice is ours- we can either make our ag immigration work or we can keep up things as they are now. We made it easy for ag workers to come in the past, and we can do it again.
I'm not sure how you get from "we can run them out" to "are we going to become dependent on other nations..." I see you too believe the lie that Americans won't do farm work. Americans can and did do farm work very well, thank you. There are Americans making $35K that are living out of their cars because after taxes, health insurance, etc the $800+/mo that landlords want for a one bedroom is out of the question. Last year an American woman was busted for having 23 illegals in a three bedroom house. They were each paying $200/mo to use a bed for 8 hours. Americans may have to live like this one day but this is the first wave of post recession casualties. I mean... where is your empathy? Do you want to sleep in a bed that two other strangers sleep in? If it is anathema to you, why are you willing to relegate other humans to such a fate, even if they were once Mexican nationals? Anyone who labors should be paid a fair wage. Borders should be sovereign. Why have them otherwise. If there is no upside to living within the 'protection' of U.S. borders then there is no point to being an American. If anyone who wants to be exploited can come into the U.S. with the tacit complicity of the U.S. government to take work from U.S. citizens there is no point for 'real' Americans to remain here. Mexicans are here because their government cannot or will not offer them opportunity. Increasingly, Americans find themselves similarly disenfranchised. Where should disenfranchised Americans migrate to? I am (perhaps foolishly) hoping for an answer.
H
We are on the same page- you just don't realize it.
I was born and raised on a farm. We also own some ranch land that isn't suitable for farming anything but hay. I spent my childhood either driving a tractor on our dry farm or chasing cattle up in the hills when the dry farm work was done for the moment.
I live in Idaho, which is still largely a farming state. Although I didn't pack irrigation pipe in the spud fields, I did my share of picking potatoes during harvest on my uncle's farm, so I'm familiar with the stoop work, too.
I fully agree that illegals work all kinds of jobs here. They have all kinds of skills, and those who don't know ag work try to find jobs in areas they do know. I spoke only for those who I know, who did come up here to work the fields.
I am very aware of the problems Mexican farmers have, and that's why I mentioned their skills. A Mexican farmer with few tools and little land he can call his own can do more with it than most Americans I know could. Give a good Mexican farmer a farm job north of the border, pay him fairly for his expertise, and he will make himself and the farm's owner money. I have seen this firsthand many times, including on our own property. Much of the ground that was dry farmed when I was a kid is now leased and irrigated. And some of it is managed by a former illegal who stayed and, with a lot of help from they guy who leases our land, became an American citizen after a decade of living here with no visa and no protection from deportation except his boss.
I don't understand your point in your comments about housing and wages. Are you trying to say that Anglos are willing to do farm work? If so, that's partially true, at least in Idaho - many Anglos here still do work ag jobs, but more do not. I hope you don't think I was trying to make a blanket statement.
I used the term 'real Americans' sarcastically. Way too many Anglo folks have taken to calling themselves that. It's a way of feeling culturally superior for them, I guess.
But it is true that farming as a profession is fading away more and more with each passing year. We could talk about the reasons for that for a long time, but it is true.
And we are getting ourselves and our farms into trouble as the big corporate farms grow ever larger and devote our farmland into increasing monoculture.
We could talk a lot about that problem, too, but the end game will be an increasing dependence on other nations to keep us fed. There are other nations that don't have our vast and rich farm land- for those countries, dependence on ag importing is a necessity, and they are at the mercies of the countries that feed them. America still has the capability of feeding ourselves and much of the world, but those abilities are steadily fading.
I agree completely with your thoughts regarding immigration reform. It is not only unworkable to have an agricultural system that depends on illegal immigrants, it is astonishingly stupid and expensive to keep going on this course. And there are a lot of illegal immigrants who have lived here almost their lives, with kids and grandkids who were born here. Thousands of people who are threatened with deportation. To deport them not only weakens agriculture; it weakens every part of our society where they are filling necessary jobs.
That's what I meant when I mentioned that we can't kick 'em out.
The only way to make our borders sovereign is to allow workers who want to come here to work legal aliens without impossibly long delays and jumping through flaming hoops to get here.
We do make it easy for some people from some countries, but not other people from other countries. In the end, who is more important? The guy from Bangladesh who will help design a company's new computer system or a guy from Guatemala who knows how to grow food under bad climate and poor soil?
I'm glad you mentioned Mexico's lack of opportunity. The United States has always benefited greatly from the mistakes other countries make with their citizens. We get the best, the strongest, and the brightest from all over the world because we are the land of opportunity. Let Mexico screw up- they are already a formidable economic force, but we are gonna keep getting their best folks. It happened before with Germany, Ireland, Italy, Russia, England, France and Spain. And just about every other place on the planet.
I hope our current madness in this regard is short and passing- we don't have to encourage those who seek to come here; all we have to do is give them a reasonable entrance, and they will do what every nation has done in the past- give us their best for free.
We all come from immigrant stock. Every one of us. The only thing that differs is how far back some of our ancestors arrived.
Last edited by banjomike; 10-03-2011 at 03:59 AM..
We are on the same page- you just don't realize it.
I was born and raised on a farm. We also own some ranch land that isn't suitable for farming anything but hay. I spent my childhood either driving a tractor on our dry farm or chasing cattle up in the hills when the dry farm work was done for the moment.
I live in Idaho, which is still largely a farming state. Although I didn't pack irrigation pipe in the spud fields, I did my share of picking potatoes during harvest on my uncle's farm, so I'm familiar with the stoop work, too.
I fully agree that illegals work all kinds of jobs here. They have all kinds of skills, and those who don't know ag work try to find jobs in areas they do know. I spoke only for those who I know, who did come up here to work the fields.
I am very aware of the problems Mexican farmers have, and that's why I mentioned their skills. A Mexican farmer with few tools and little land he can call his own can do more with it than most Americans I know could. Give a good Mexican farmer a farm job north of the border, pay him fairly for his expertise, and he will make himself and the farm's owner money. I have seen this firsthand many times, including on our own property. Much of the ground that was dry farmed when I was a kid is now leased and irrigated. And some of it is managed by a former illegal who stayed and, with a lot of help from they guy who leases our land, became an American citizen after a decade of living here with no visa and no protection from deportation except his boss.
I don't understand your point in your comments about housing and wages. Are you trying to say that Anglos are willing to do farm work? If so, that's partially true, at least in Idaho - many Anglos here still do work ag jobs, but more do not. I hope you don't think I was trying to make a blanket statement.
I used the term 'real Americans' sarcastically. Way too many Anglo folks have taken to calling themselves that. It's a way of feeling culturally superior for them, I guess.
But it is true that farming as a profession is fading away more and more with each passing year. We could talk about the reasons for that for a long time, but it is true.
And we are getting ourselves and our farms into trouble as the big corporate farms grow ever larger and devote our farmland into increasing monoculture.
We could talk a lot about that problem, too, but the end game will be an increasing dependence on other nations to keep us fed. There are other nations that don't have our vast and rich farm land- for those countries, dependence on ag importing is a necessity, and they are at the mercies of the countries that feed them. America still has the capability of feeding ourselves and much of the world, but those abilities are steadily fading.
I agree completely with your thoughts regarding immigration reform. It is not only unworkable to have an agricultural system that depends on illegal immigrants, it is astonishingly stupid and expensive to keep going on this course. And there are a lot of illegal immigrants who have lived here almost their lives, with kids and grandkids who were born here. Thousands of people who are threatened with deportation. To deport them not only weakens agriculture; it weakens every part of our society where they are filling necessary jobs.
That's what I meant when I mentioned that we can't kick 'em out.
The only way to make our borders sovereign is to allow workers who want to come here to work legal aliens without impossibly long delays and jumping through flaming hoops to get here.
We do make it easy for some people from some countries, but not other people from other countries. In the end, who is more important? The guy from Bangladesh who will help design a company's new computer system or a guy from Guatemala who knows how to grow food under bad climate and poor soil?
I'm glad you mentioned Mexico's lack of opportunity. The United States has always benefited greatly from the mistakes other countries make with their citizens. We get the best, the strongest, and the brightest from all over the world because we are the land of opportunity. Let Mexico screw up- they are already a formidable economic force, but we are gonna keep getting their best folks. It happened before with Germany, Ireland, Italy, Russia, England, France and Spain. And just about every other place on the planet.
I hope our current madness in this regard is short and passing- we don't have to encourage those who seek to come here; all we have to do is give them a reasonable entrance, and they will do what every nation has done in the past- give us their best for free.
We all come from immigrant stock. Every one of us. The only thing that differs is how far back some of our ancestors arrived.
i couldn't disagree more with your post.
we are not getting mexico's "best folks".
we are getting people who either want handouts or feel they can't make it in their own country. if you doubt me, maybe you should look at the increase in illegal immigrant statistics and then look at the increase in social service costs in this country-almost a direct correlation.
hispanics now have the highest percentage of children in poverty in america-about 1/3, and that sure isn't because they are so "skilled" and making all the right decisions.
as american wages continue to drop due to an OVERSUPPLY OF CHEAP LABOR, they are being asked to shoulder a higher cost in social services, (due to all of the unemployed and underemployed)------ with currency that is being arbitrarily degraded by an international banking cartel, so they face rising inflation while they try to do it!
how will people even pretend that this is sustainable? mcdonald's has a few thousand openings and over 1 million people apply. college graduates have a hard time finding employment, and are moving back in with mom and dad. how are they going to pay back their government backed student loans (that's right, because the government took over the student loan business) what kind of stress will that add to the increasingly overburdened system?
what part of "we don't need more workers right now" don't you understand?
Last edited by floridasandy; 10-03-2011 at 04:30 AM..
America needs an underclass. One is made from petty criminals. The other is illegal immigrants. Without them, we cease to function....or just function poorly.
I agree that Americans won't work for the same wages as immigrants will, but not because we need an underclass. Simply put, it's our customs. We've grown accustomed to having our own space and comforts. I'm not defending it, just observing.
While Asians and Hispanics coming to this country are used to living in a closer community, most Americans that have been here for longer are more used to having their own space. Most of the homeless situation would be averted if we could adopt communal living, but few of us seem to be able to do that.
Migrant workers and others that take the "lower class" jobs -- little education needed, poor wages, can do this in part because they can snuggle in to small places together and still get along. Many Americans cannot get along in spacious homes, even if they are only a small family, or a couple.
It is not that we need a lower class, it is that we need to become more adaptive to our circumstances, and less prideful in our attitudes.
I agree that Americans won't work for the same wages as immigrants will, but not because we need an underclass. Simply put, it's our customs. We've grown accustomed to having our own space and comforts. I'm not defending it, just observing.
While Asians and Hispanics coming to this country are used to living in a closer community, most Americans that have been here for longer are more used to having their own space. Most of the homeless situation would be averted if we could adopt communal living, but few of us seem to be able to do that.
Migrant workers and others that take the "lower class" jobs -- little education needed, poor wages, can do this in part because they can snuggle in to small places together and still get along. Many Americans cannot get along in spacious homes, even if they are only a small family, or a couple.
It is not that we need a lower class, it is that we need to become more adaptive to our circumstances, and less prideful in our attitudes.
yeah, instead of raising the class structure-let's lower it and adjust.
it's not like there aren't practical solutions to get this country back on track.
Location: Democratic Peoples Republic of Redneckistan
11,078 posts, read 15,078,355 times
Reputation: 3937
Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn
Under traditional free market principles, if you can't attract workers at the wage you offer, you can either stop trying to attract workers, or you can increase the wage you offer.
How much do the major agribusiness CEOs and executives make in salary and stock per year?
Perhaps if they value their profit, they'd do well to offer more in terms of wages to those who make their profits possible in the first place.
Old post,but a good one.
Perhaps the farmers could take some of that federal welfare they receive in the form of farm subsidies and pay a living wage.
If not,let them fall by the wayside and a better farmer willing to make a bit less for themselves will take their place
Location: Democratic Peoples Republic of Redneckistan
11,078 posts, read 15,078,355 times
Reputation: 3937
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4
You know, when you apply for a job these days, there is so much paperwork involved...and all the legal stuff and worker's comp stuff...one wonders if no one else is not doing the job because they can't get them hired fast enough.
The chance of a farmer having workmen's comp insurance on anyone other than himself is next to zero.
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