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Old 06-28-2011, 10:06 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
8,145 posts, read 6,520,522 times
Reputation: 1754

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanrene View Post
In WI?

The GOP have won EVERYTHING in WI. The budget, the CB bill, etc. What have the unions/Left won?

Again?

Did you miss the HISTORIC 2010 election where conservatives swept into power across the nation, including in WI?
You do know that you have to run for those seat again right? You do know that 2012 will not be the same as 2010 right? Those are not life time appointments.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:37 AM
 
2,549 posts, read 2,718,495 times
Reputation: 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Dedicated and hard working teachers don't necessarily produce an educated student. Just take a look at U.S. students in comparison to their international peers. Even our top students in advanced math (calculus) and physics rank 2nd to last and last, respectively, compared to other countries' top students (TIMSS).

Explain why dedicated and hard working teachers fail to adequately educate the very best students.
You are correct IMO in pointing out that dedication from a teacher does not guarantee student performance. As many have stated, there are major policy problems in education from the details of Leave No Child Behind and the testing emphasis to other political issues (many call that the liberal agenda). These all affect the students and teachers alike.

As far as comparing our students to foreign ones goes...Here in the US, we have to provide education to everyone born here regardless of citizenship. This (partially) has caused the student population to mushroom and class sizes to follow. Student teacher ratios are becoming less and less favorable. All the while, resources are being directed away from education due to fiscal challenges. Education is sadly up front in the cost cutting line.

In my area, the Koreans excel above and beyond, even in the US school system. Why? I believe it starts at home where their emphasis on education is simply greater than ours. Almost militant. They also have a greater reverance for educators in their society and that probably keeps teacher quality much higher. Also, these kids are tutored ad nauseum. There are Korean Study Labs prominently dotting the landscape so the extra-curricular activity is a major advantage.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:45 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,801 posts, read 44,610,756 times
Reputation: 13625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
You are correct IMO in pointing out that dedication from a teacher does not guarantee student performance. As many have stated, there are major policy problems in education from the details of Leave No Child Behind and the testing emphasis to other political issues (many call that the liberal agenda). These all affect the students and teachers alike.
That does nothing to explain why our very best students lag the best students in the rest of the world.

Quote:
As far as comparing our students to foreign ones goes...Here in the US, we have to provide education to everyone born here regardless of citizenship. This (partially) has caused the student population to mushroom and class sizes to follow. Student teacher ratios are becoming less and less favorable.
Again, the comparison was our very best students to other countries' very best students. Calculus and advanced physics class sizes aren't mushrooming.

Quote:
In my area, the Koreans excel above and beyond, even in the US school system.
And yet those very dedicated, very best Asian-American students still lag behind every other countries' best students.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:49 AM
 
2,549 posts, read 2,718,495 times
Reputation: 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
You are correct IMO in pointing out that dedication from a teacher does not guarantee student performance. As many have stated, there are major policy problems in education from the details of Leave No Child Behind and the testing emphasis to other political issues (many call that the liberal agenda). These all affect the students and teachers alike.

As far as comparing our students to foreign ones goes...Here in the US, we have to provide education to everyone born here regardless of citizenship. This (partially) has caused the student population to mushroom and class sizes to follow. Student teacher ratios are becoming less and less favorable. All the while, resources are being directed away from education due to fiscal challenges. Education is sadly up front in the cost cutting line.

In my area, the Koreans excel above and beyond, even in the US school system. Why? I believe it starts at home where their emphasis on education is simply greater than ours. Almost militant. They also have a greater reverance for educators in their society and that probably keeps teacher quality much higher. Also, these kids are tutored ad nauseum. There are Korean Study Labs prominently dotting the landscape so the extra-curricular activity is a major advantage.

So is the problem simply those damn liberals and their unions? Cutting costs seems to be only a short term solution and eliminating unions will surely save money. But will the quality of educators drop even further, along with the compensation thus further reducing student achievement? Almost certainly.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:52 AM
 
2,549 posts, read 2,718,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
That does nothing to explain why our very best students lag the best students in the rest of the world.

Again, the comparison was our very best students to other countries' very best students. Calculus and advanced physics class sizes aren't mushrooming.

And yet those very dedicated, very best Asian-American students still lag behind every other countries' best students.
What I am trying to extract from your posts is what the problem is. If it isn't the quality of the teacher, then it must be the system (mission statement / goals, curriculum) right?

Are you merely pointing out the deficiencies? Should we blow the whole thing up and start again? What?
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:59 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,801 posts, read 44,610,756 times
Reputation: 13625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
What I am trying to extract from your posts is what the problem is. If it isn't the quality of the teacher, then it must be the system (mission statement / goals, curriculum) right?
Who says it isn't the quality of the teacher? Being dedicated and hard working does not necessarily make one a good teacher.
Quote:
Should we blow the whole thing up and start again? What?
Actually, yes, I think we should start over. The current system - including Ed Schools, their faculty, and the Ed School curriculum - is FUBAR.
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Old 06-28-2011, 11:47 AM
 
2,549 posts, read 2,718,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Who says it isn't the quality of the teacher? Being dedicated and hard working does not necessarily make one a good teacher. Actually, yes, I think we should start over. The current system - including Ed Schools, their faculty, and the Ed School curriculum - is FUBAR.
Well. I think we have progressed in this discussion and that is good. Now to get beyond the general perspective.
Let's say there is an accepted and improved system that we adopt...how do we improve the quality of the teacher? In most professions, compensation is a significant part.

Any ideas on what to change in the system, other than everything?

P.S. Are you an educator?
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Old 06-28-2011, 12:38 PM
 
58,749 posts, read 27,092,933 times
Reputation: 14186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
The fiscal woes we are all talking about are very real. Yes. Spending needs to be changed and scrutinized. Let's address your question...
Do teachers get a Master's to be better teachers or just to get more money?

I'm sure some do, just as a manager at a private firm gets an MBA (quite general and not necessarily a guarantee of a better manager) to further his or her career. But to say all, or even most, do it for the money only is beyond cynical and very narrow-minded IMO. There are degrees in education that expand the knowledge base of educators in a positive way. Education, in a sense is no different than any other profession in the sense that higher quality professional seek greater compensation. Take away that incentive and you tend to reduce the talent pool.

Yes. Unions protect some undeserving, under achievers. That is a flaw in that system. But they also protect some of the most dedicated people I have met who are working in a system that is continually seeing reductions in budgets and resources, increases in workloads, with no changes in teacher performance expectations.

Lastly, the measuring of a teacher's performance may be obvious with the lowest common denominator slob but past that, there are a lot of variables of which grading is only one, that would need to go into that equation. That complexity is as much a reason, if not a greater one, for resisting mandatory performance based pay, as this nefarious hiding behind the union scenario you lament about.
Don't try to justify your position by changing what I said. I never said Most or ALL. I was asking a question. If you can't comprehend don't respond anymore.

In the private sector you don't get a raise just because you got more education. You get the raise IF you can show you have taken what you learned and applied it to your job and have improved your output.

Again, all I am saying is that getting a masters is NOT a reason to get a raise. Prove that by getting that Masters you have become a better teacher. A better teacher should get better results.

To the last part I bolded I say B.S. a teach is there to teach. Nothing more, nothing less. They should be evaluated by how good or bad they do.
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Old 06-28-2011, 01:14 PM
 
2,549 posts, read 2,718,495 times
Reputation: 898
Default BTW, if I was petty, I'd start correcting your language...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick Enough View Post
Don't try to justify your position by changing what I said. I never said Most or ALL. I was asking a question. If you can't comprehend don't respond anymore.

In the private sector you don't get a raise just because you got more education. You get the raise IF you can show you have taken what you learned and applied it to your job and have improved your output.

Again, all I am saying is that getting a masters is NOT a reason to get a raise. Prove that by getting that Masters you have become a better teacher. A better teacher should get better results.

To the last part I bolded I say B.S. a teach is there to teach. Nothing more, nothing less. They should be evaluated by how good or bad they do.
You sir..or madame are combative and extremely rude by questioning my comprehension. It is uncalled for and quite unproductive. For that lack of tact that you posess, I will not continue to respond to you beyond this post.

Your blanket statements and generalizations are bound to provoke some use of definitive words (most or all) since you say things like "Again, all I am saying is that getting a masters is NOT a reason to get a raise", "They should be evaluated by how good or bad they do" and "a teach is there to teach. Nothing more, nothing less." Reading these overly simplified POVs, without anything concrete to support them, leads me to believe you have not taught or are not close to anyone who is a serious educator so you are essentially talking out of your backside. It is one thing to be ignorant of something. We are all guilty of that by nature. It is another thing to spout off about things we know little about. That is just plain stupid.

Good day and good riddance!
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Old 06-28-2011, 02:35 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,801 posts, read 44,610,756 times
Reputation: 13625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Floyd View Post
Let's say there is an accepted and improved system that we adopt...how do we improve the quality of the teacher? In most professions, compensation is a significant part.
In most professions, results and accountability are significant factors in continued employment and compensation level.
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