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Old 06-30-2011, 11:00 AM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,221 posts, read 12,279,161 times
Reputation: 3554

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Actually you specifically listed Reagan.

Because he was the one given credit for vodooeconomics

haha, so your synopsis is, that if the rich make money, the economy is poor? Really? The point I need to make is that you need to study economic business cycles and stop embarassing yourself

The whole idea was that if the rich got richer it would bring up the middle class, it does not work
Actually voodoo economics lowered the middle class and raised more out of poverty, by making more people rich, (at that time calculated by incomes over $50K), he substantially boosted the median income in america, and you want it to go away? What conclusion could I come to other than you hate the rich, want to reverse the policies which boosted the median incomes in america, other than you love people being poor?
Please give examples of someone going from proverty to being rich without a inheritance, lottery, or self promotion (athletics/entertainment). Many of the people that you mentioned had enough money to invest which is something that the poor does not. BTW, many people became rich during the 80's were b/c of the dot.com rage (see Mark Cuban/Bill Gates) and a hell of alot of drug dealers. These new millionaires came about not because of tax breaks or anything else the government had an active hand in. Please explain the influx of the new milionaires and the destruction of the middle class today? Could it be that they are related (business or by blood) and are just continuing to feed off the political tit of the government?
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:06 AM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,912,035 times
Reputation: 9383
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Maybe it is time for you to recognize that an extremely imbalanced society in terms of affluence is very dangerous, both economically and socially.
Why? We've had extremely imbalanced society since the beginning of time and yet we are the numer one nation in the world. Some might summise that this imbalance actually creates a better nation, and those who have less of an imablance, worse. Why dont you name some of these fabulous nations where everyone is the same? Cuba? North Korea? Russia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
No one says that a capitalist system should produce an equality of outcomes, but when things become too distorted - when the top CEO makes 1,000 times the typical worker and the bottom 50% hasn't seen their living standard change much at all since 1970... what do you think will happen?
Actually your own chart doesnt say that the bottom 50% hasnt seen much of a change since the 1970's.. yes the bottom 20percentile hasnt seen a change, but thats what happens when you rely upon governmental income to substain your livelyhood. Why would you expect so many on the bottom to increase, when more and more on the bottom rely upon the very same income as the rest of them? Be it welfare, social security, more and more are relying upon government so yes, the bottom section is becoming more and more stagnate.. How do you blame the top, because the bottom relies upon government to live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Not everyone can be a Bill Gates. The lower classes need jobs that can allow them to live. That's how it has always worked; the rich would create jobs and wealth trickles down to the lower classes. The rich get to keep more, and that's fine.
Actually when you create policies which encourage companies to outsource jobs, and thus lower the demand for labor, then and only then you can lower the wages of americans. With a higher demand for labor you get a higher wage, but yet again, liberals support policies to push companies outside the country while complaining about the consequences..
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
But now the rich are keeping an enormous chunk and the jobs...well, they're mostly gone or they're inferior to what used to be there. So you have a sea of lower class people who are now increasingly dependent on the direct transfer of aid from the top few percent - they are basically enslaved. Before, at least they could really work and earn a real living. Not anymore.
True, but thats not the top 2%'s fault. I know a guy who owns hundreds of grocery stores. When they increased minimum wage last time, he bought up 1000 self checkout counters and got rid of about 7500 jobs because the self checkout was cheaper than the cost to employ. While thats 7500 lower income jobs, this is now 7500 unemployed individuals fighting to get other jobs that normally would have paid more, which lowered the wages of other jobs. He got richer, everyone else got poorer, and this was as a direct result to Democratic policies. Again, waaa waaa, we need more pay to waaa waaa, I have no jobs.. Who exactly is to blame? The guy who owns the grocery store, or those that made it cost effective for him to eliminate the jobs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
So when you defend this skyrocketing disparity...what else do you expect? This is a vicious circle.
No one is defending the disparity, we are defending policies which reduce the disparity and attacking policies which increase it, ironically the very same policies Democrats are asking for more of
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:14 AM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,912,035 times
Reputation: 9383
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
Please give examples of someone going from proverty to being rich without a inheritance, lottery, or self promotion (athletics/entertainment).
The median income of ALL americans climbed due to Reagan policies
http://www.house.gov/jec/middle/crunch3/fig-2a.gif (broken link)
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
Many of the people that you mentioned had enough money to invest which is something that the poor does not.
I was homeless 15 years ago, dont tell me it cant be done.. The poor are poor because they are too busy buying cars and spending their money rather than buying things that bring in income.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
BTW, many people became rich during the 80's were b/c of the dot.com rage (see Mark Cuban/Bill Gates) and a hell of alot of drug dealers.
Actually that was the 90's,
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
These new millionaires came about not because of tax breaks or anything else the government had an active hand in.
BINGO.. Government does NOT create wealth! They became wealthy because government stood back and allowed people to take advantage of the opportunities in america, and didnt hinder business. Governments STOP expansion, they dont create it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
Please explain the influx of the new milionaires and the destruction of the middle class today? Could it be that they are related (business or by blood) and are just continuing to feed off the political tit of the government?
Are you down to just making things up now?
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:23 AM
 
3,393 posts, read 3,999,846 times
Reputation: 9310
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
Please give examples of someone going from proverty to being rich without a inheritance, lottery, or self promotion (athletics/entertainment). Many of the people that you mentioned had enough money to invest which is something that the poor does not. BTW, many people became rich during the 80's were b/c of the dot.com rage (see Mark Cuban/Bill Gates) and a hell of alot of drug dealers. These new millionaires came about not because of tax breaks or anything else the government had an active hand in. Please explain the influx of the new milionaires and the destruction of the middle class today? Could it be that they are related (business or by blood) and are just continuing to feed off the political tit of the government?
I am a business banker and I've seen a ton of self-made millionaires. Yes, they are out there and yes, they made it on their own. They didn't steal from anyone, they didn't do anything crooked. They just worked their tails off.

One that springs to mind is a gentleman that worked in a machine shop. He tinkered around and invented a new kind of hinge. He patented it, marketed it and it took off.

I know of another one that put himself through college and then worked for a software company. When the IPhone came out, he invented an app for it. Bam, millionaire.

I know another one that came here from Russia. He was doing HVAC repair for a while and then bought out the owner. Then he expanded by buying out competitors that had poor business practices. He built his company up to be a multi-million dollar franchise.

Another client of mine said that she gets up every day thinking about 235 mouths to feed. She is totally aware of how many employees she has and how many dependents they have and how ALL those people are depending on her making the business work.

They aren't all evil people like it is portrayed in the media, movies, etc. Most of them are very hard-working, decent people trying to make a living.

The point is, yes, this is the whole POINT of America. That you can build yourself up from nothing. Why is this so difficult to believe? Because you, personally haven't done it? None of your friends have?
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Charlotte
12,642 posts, read 15,555,513 times
Reputation: 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post

These arent my "opinion", these are facts. The mass population spends while the 2% invests.. BIG DIFFERENCE.
Quote:
July 27, 2010
Retirement benefits were available to 74 percent of all full-time workers in private industry in March 2010 while 39 percent of part-time workers had such access.
Source

hmm...seems like a lot more than 2% investing.

Again, it's very interesting listening to your views regarding the 98% of entitled Americans....
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:35 AM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,912,035 times
Reputation: 9383
Quote:
Originally Posted by walidm View Post
Source

hmm...seems like a lot more than 2% investing.
FAIL, people dumping money into the stock market, isnt investing, thats saving, let alone your error of linking to something that says its "available" which doesnt equate to taking action
Quote:
Originally Posted by walidm View Post
Again, it's very interesting listening to your views regarding the 98% of entitled Americans....
Whats even more interesting is you somehow coming to the conclusion that when I say EVERYONE is afforded opportunities, you somehow conclude this is only 2% of the population. If you cant comprehend this, then how can I expect you to comprehend a legal sales agreement?
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Charlotte
12,642 posts, read 15,555,513 times
Reputation: 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Whats even more interesting is you somehow coming to the conclusion that when I say EVERYONE is afforded opportunities, you somehow conclude this is only 2% of the population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
6M americans can control 98% of what you see, because that 6M americans took advantage of the opportunities afforded to them while 302,745,538 Americans sat back and moaned and groaned about what they were "entitled" to..

uh huh....
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:00 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,866 posts, read 46,407,651 times
Reputation: 18520
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin View Post
We already know you think the poor/middle class should sacrafice by giving up some benefits to social programs such as social security, medicare, medicaid, pell grants, heating assistance, housing assistance, etc.

In what ways should the rich and corporate america contribute?



Accept the fines and high penalties that I would implement on all overseas and offshoring they do.
Seize their corp and assets for all the illegal aliens they exploit here on our soil.
Make trade tariffs so they don't get rich off someone else's labor, while more of our citizens go on welfare, because they cannot find work.


That plan would work well to punish the big bad corporations, so small business has a fighting chance to compete with them.
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:03 PM
 
20,406 posts, read 12,309,210 times
Reputation: 10180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Maybe it is time for you to recognize that an extremely imbalanced society in terms of affluence is very dangerous, both economically and socially. No one says that a capitalist system should produce an equality of outcomes, but when things become too distorted - when the top CEO makes 1,000 times the typical worker and the bottom 50% hasn't seen their living standard change much at all since 1970... what do you think will happen?

Not everyone can be a Bill Gates. The lower classes need jobs that can allow them to live. That's how it has always worked; the rich would take the risks and provide the jobs and wealth trickles down to the lower classes. The rich get to keep a lot more since they took the risk, and that's fine. But the lower classes used to also get something.

But now the gap has skyrocketed. The rich are keeping an enormous chunk and the jobs...well, they're mostly gone or they're inferior to what used to be there. So you have a sea of lower class people who are now increasingly dependent on the direct transfer of aid from the top few percent - they are basically enslaved. What else do you expect them to do? Again, only a few are cut out to be a Bill Gates. Before, at least these people could really work and earn a real living. Not anymore.

So when you defend this skyrocketing disparity...what else do you expect? This is a vicious cycle! I'm not saying we should do something as naive as just sucking money out of the rich peoples' pockets into the poor's...this just perpetuates and exacerbates this cycle of disparity. I'm saying that fundamentally, this system has gotten way out of balance. It's not that taxes on the rich need to be raised; it's that jobs and incomes need to somehow come back for the rest of America.

Looks to me like that graph shows that Bill Clinton was one evil lover of the rich....


but really

That graph is a good one. What it shows is purchasing power of all sectors in general has followed an upward trend. That is a good thing.

I dont care what the disparity between rich and poor is. I care about the over all trend in the lower brackets. Are they gaining in standard of living and purchasing power? if not, then lets work on that. If so, lets see what can be done to improve the economy and advance that further.

This is the real issue. nonsense that leads to class warfare doesnt help anyone.
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:06 PM
 
20,406 posts, read 12,309,210 times
Reputation: 10180
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
Sure they count for the economies of India and some of the third world countries that they are pimping for cheap labor
ahh.... so we dont have jobs in America. And Evil corporations are not employing millions of workers in the USA....

they are just making crazy money from slave labor over seas.

got it.

what the heck am i doing getting up every day and driving accross Dallas Texas if I dont have a job? I must need some help.
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