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Old 06-30-2011, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Southern California
15,084 posts, read 18,592,050 times
Reputation: 10321

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpsTN View Post
Fine. So, it is OK for YOU to kill your baby, but not for me to kill it. I contend it should be illegal for either of us to kill it. If the baby is alive before and after it is born, why are mother's procecuted for killing the baby after birth but not before. Are they MORE alive after birth?

Charles Sands
37129
Using that logic war and the death penalty would be illegal.

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Old 06-30-2011, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
8,277 posts, read 6,354,026 times
Reputation: 2804
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioChic View Post
So who is its mother to make the choice to kill it?
She's the incubator, the one getting the nutrients sapped, the one that has to go through possible physical hell, the one that has to go through pain worse than any man can ever experience.

AKA: It's her body, her choice.

Quote:
And if while she was killing this innocent
Here's the snag: One without the capacity to be innocent or guilty cannot be either.

Quote:
And you think getting an abortion is a "good time
Nowhere did that poster claim that.
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:03 PM
 
1,067 posts, read 1,516,960 times
Reputation: 1080
The bottom is if a woman has the "right" to kill her own child then when a man kills an unborn child he should not be held accountable. Either it IS a life or it ISNT.
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Long Beach, CA
195 posts, read 171,533 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioChic View Post
I value INNOCENT life.
That would be an assertion, lack of action is not evidence of innocence. In fact in many cases a lack of action can be used to prove intent as it pertains to guilt. Thus the Fetus' inability to take action does not inherently make it innocent. To be specific, making a claim that absence indicates proof would be Negative Proof Fallacy... but the absence of evidence is not evidence in of itself.

Especially given examples you have ignored such as conditions that are fatal and can in fact do harm to the mother where you claim such a defect or medical issue is not just cause for abortion even though ignoring said issues can result in a fetal death that can lead to necrosis and severe medical issues for the prospective mother.

Quote:
That baby didnt ask to be created.
Meaning bringing up intent is a red herring because if the mother intended to get pregnant abortion would not be their choice and an abstrace can not have intent. There is no relevance to showing choice where none is given or made.

Quote:
So who is its mother to make the choice to kill it?
Ignoring the hypocrisy illustrated by your earlier comments involving killing said mothers and them deserving to die.

That would still be Appeal Fallacy where you attempt to give higher credence to a non-voiced opinion (because it can not be voiced) than to one that is... with just a touch of Straw Man Fallacy as you focus so much on that singular aspect that you seem to ignore the concept of external factors regarding social cost, medical, quality of life, etc.

Quote:
And if while she was killing this innocent she should die as well...well hey Karmas a mean b*tch and the mother only was dealt what she was given.
This in turn illustrates the blatant hypocrisy often present in the issue. If all life is precious as is claimed... one would not condone death of any form. It turns your entire argument into "you should not kill those I do not want killed" while moments later demanding that death is suitable for others who you disagree with.

You can not have it both ways... at least not while retaining any semblance of integrity or logic. If you defend life you do not pick and choose who deserves to die.

Quote:
And you think getting an abortion is a "good time: you have more issues than just your over use of the space and enter button.
But they never said the abortion was a "Good time" meaning you are again back to Straw Man... becuase you focused on "Good time" to the extend that you misrepresented the context which was obviously the participants having sex not the abortion.

Are you by chance aware that the percentage of deaths related to childbirth have actually declined since Row vs Wade? Or that prior to that decision roughly half of all maternal deaths were due to abortions that did not have the proper medical procedure? How about the fact that deaths from pregnancy complications are actually more common than deaths from abortion complications?

What that means is not aborting fetuses with issues or that cause issues actually cause more deaths statistically speaking than abortion does (at least in regards to the mothers, I refuse to get into a dogmatic debate regarding the nature of life and conception as it is an argument that can not be proven or dis-proven)
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Long Beach, CA
195 posts, read 171,533 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioChic View Post
The bottom is if a woman has the "right" to kill her own child then when a man kills an unborn child he should not be held accountable. Either it IS a life or it ISNT.
I am guessing you missed the post quite a ways back where that was actually explained.

It is actually the anti-abortion camp that has instituted laws in some states that treat the fetus as a second charge of murder or at the very least manslaughter.

It is not the fault of pro-choice people, or liberals, or anything like that.... it is laws intended to demonize based on the concept held by the opposite camp. If you disagree with such an action I fear you must talk to those anti-abortion lobbyists and groups who push such legal agendas and cause such laws to be held allowing for the double charge.
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Ohio
15,719 posts, read 14,879,927 times
Reputation: 22000
How about instead of aborting, we just remove the fetus and stick it in a freezer and pretend we will "use" it some day.....like they do for In Vitro?

Ya know, all of those "babies" people make ON PURPOSE....knowing full well most of them will die. Er, I mean, "save for later".
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:16 PM
 
21,035 posts, read 20,435,453 times
Reputation: 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzarama View Post
Some of us give women more credit than you do. If having an abortion is often the difficult decision I keep reading it is and most women who have abortions would prefer to avoid pregnancy, in my LaLaLaLaLa land, women have the intellect and self-control to use bc reliably.

Perhaps I'm overestimating women, or maybe the decision to have an abortion is pretty simple after all.
I give women plenty of credit for making hard decisions intelligently. Those that are Anti-Choice are the ones who think women have the reasoning ability of cattle.


My point was that women have been having unwanted pregnancys since they could get pregnant(the very beginning)....that is human nature .


Why do you think women should have evolved to be perfect?

There's no sign any other human have evolved to be perfect. Men certainly haven't and NO one here on CD is either....


But maybe every person should have a public trial once a month where there mistakes are displayed for everyone to see so the rest of us perfect people can judge THEM?????
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:51 PM
 
5,352 posts, read 6,504,189 times
Reputation: 2727
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioChic View Post
And you think getting an abortion is a "good time: you have more issues than just your over use of the space and enter button.
You know, I've heard that reading is fundamental.
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Old 06-30-2011, 06:05 PM
 
1,167 posts, read 1,941,211 times
Reputation: 804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Who?Me?! View Post
I give women plenty of credit for making hard decisions intelligently. Those that are Anti-Choice are the ones who think women have the reasoning ability of cattle.


My point was that women have been having unwanted pregnancys since they could get pregnant(the very beginning)....that is human nature .


Why do you think women should have evolved to be perfect?

There's no sign any other human have evolved to be perfect. Men certainly haven't and NO one here on CD is either....


But maybe every person should have a public trial once a month where there mistakes are displayed for everyone to see so the rest of us perfect people can judge THEM?????
You've accused people here of supporting raping a child. Your post are so sensationalist, as to lack any kind of credibility.

All I've seen from you is "don't support killing fetus"? Oh well you support raping children. How you jump from that I don't understand.

How you assume anyone is trying to Punish women I don't understand. It's not punishment. It's responsibility. I'm sorry you think others should suffer for irresponsible action.

I'm not trying to punish women for wanting to have sex, regardless of what you say. But I know what's coming, you're going to accuse me of being a member of all sorts of groups, supporting the most disgusting acts possible, why? I don't know.
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Old 06-30-2011, 06:14 PM
 
21,035 posts, read 20,435,453 times
Reputation: 5935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadell View Post
You've accused people here of supporting raping a child. Your post are so sensationalist, as to lack any kind of credibility.

All I've seen from you is "don't support killing fetus"? Oh well you support raping children. How you jump from that I don't understand.

How you assume anyone is trying to Punish women I don't understand. It's not punishment. It's responsibility. I'm sorry you think others should suffer for irresponsible action.

I'm not trying to punish women for wanting to have sex, regardless of what you say. But I know what's coming, you're going to accuse me of being a member of all sorts of groups, supporting the most disgusting acts possible, why? I don't know.
Show the post where I accused people of supporting raping a child.



No, you don't understand how , when somone say they're anti-choice because they allege it kills a "baby" and turn right around and say that it's OK in the case of incest or rape it PROVES they don't care about the "baby" but only on punishing a woman who enjoyed having sex and got pregnant. They say she has to NOT enjoy sex(rape/incest) to have their "blessing" on her getting an abortion.


If you don't get it now you won't especially if you think it's "sensationalist".


It's is customary to address the post you quote...
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