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The idea that anyone who disagrees with homosexuality is "secretly gay" or "homophobic" is just bizarre.
No, it's not bizarre. It may be unusual, but since we've seen many anti-gay public figures turn out to be homosexuals themselves, it's not far-fetched at all.
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I would never called an athiest who disagreed with religion, "mental" or secretly religious. LOL.
That's not a good comparison because atheism is a minority view. It takes more personal strength to come out as an atheist than it does to come out as a religious person.
A better comparison would be a woman who hates abortion and thinks it should be illegal - yet has had three of them herself.
Either way, how is not agreeing or liking homosexuality discrimination, aversion, or irrational fear?
Well, constantly claiming disgust and revulsion about gays or what gays might do would fall under aversion. Trying to pass legislation to deny certain rights or privileges to gays would be discrimination, and being paranoid or obsessed with the idea that gays have some fascist agenda to corrupt small children and turn the world gay would fall under irrational fear.
I'd say a lot of the anti-gay crowd falls under one of those areas.
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I know many people that think homosexuality is immoral(for whatever reasons) but they aren't repulsed, they have not discriminated in anyway against homosexuals and they aren't afraid of them.
Finding something immoral could be deemed an aversion. Aversion means "strong dislike". Most anti-gays have a very very strong dislike of gays or what gays may or may not do in the bedroom.
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Case in my point, my best friend's sister came out of the closet two years ago. My best friend does not agree with homosexuality(as in, it is against her beliefs) but her and her sister are best friends, she always allows her sister to bring her "partners" over and she gets angry if anyone says anything bad about her sister being a lesbian. My point is that it is possible to just NOT like something but not have a repulsion, a "fear", or even discriminate against that "thing". We've all had something we have not liked, but that did not border on the line of "irrational fear", "aversion", or "discrimination".
I've never said it's not possible to dislike something without being averse or have a fear of it. But when you have so many people who spend more time attacking or ridiculing gays and talking about gay sex more than actual gays do, those people go beyond a mere disagreement, to the level of homophobia. If one feels the need to accuse gays of being part of some conspiracy or agenda to corrupt children, or if one tries to use their beliefs to deny gays rights or push for evil laws (such as Uganda's kill the gays bill), they are homophobic.
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The idea that anyone who disagrees with homosexuality is "secretly gay" or "homophobic" is just bizarre. I would never called an athiest who disagreed with religion, "mental" or secretly religious. LOL.
It's not actually all that bizarre. While I don't think all or even most strongly anti-gay people are secretly gay, there is in fact a strong correlation between the most rabidly anti-gay people, and those who are caught or later admit to being gay. Look how many prominent Republicans, pastors, televangelists, anti-gay organization founders, etc. who were caught with gay prostitutes, or admited to being gay later in their life. It's not a coincidence. Straight people who are secure with their sexuality generally do not care about gays or what gays do with their lives. Those who spend so much time criticizing gays or speaking to how unnatural it is, are more likely to be subconciously suppressing their own desires. I think you'd be amazed, if we could get actual statistics, as to how many so called "straight" men have fantasized or even experimented with the same sex at some point in their lives. Heck, they have books and videos on how common it is for military men to experiment with other men, and yet they have no problem gay bashing and will adamantly claim they are straight.
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People are entitled to feel how they feel, and to disagree with something(even if you don't understand how they could disagree with it), without being told that something is wrong with them for disagreeing with it..
They are until they start forcing those beliefs on other people through the law. I consider conservative and fundamentalist Christians to very often being downright hateful, hypocritical, judgemental people, and I consider many of their beliefs to be immoral and totally out of line with Christianity, and yet I would never vote to pass laws banning them from holding those views or being judgemental hypocrites.
I think it depends on your definition of "homophobia". An aversion to looking at or thinking about homosexuality is quite natural and normal for a typical heterosexual, especially a male. But I do believe that transferring that aversion into an all-out hatred for gay people is a learned behavior.
I'm a gay male, and I find the "scent of a woman" (and you know what I mean) to be disgusting. Does that mean I'm heterophobic? No, I'm just having a reaction that is natural and normal for me. But I do I hate women? Not at all. And that's why people should be careful about using words like "homophobic".
But you're not claiming that women are unnatural or demonic spawns of Satan. You're not spreading lies about women that they molest little boys, and have a secret agenda to corrupt America's youth. You're not trying to pass laws to make the "scent of a woman" illegal.
Those are all issues we hear on a daily basis from the anti-gay crowd.
It all really comes down to how society has developed. With such a long history of patriarchal systems and masculine normativity, it's no wonder two men being together is seen as icky, whereas 2 lesbians most guys find pretty hot. It's also due to it being relatively uncommon. Even if I see 2 guys kissing in public, I may make a double take, just because I hardly ever see it. When 95% of society is predominately heterosexual, it makes those type of encounters seem bizarre.
But you're not claiming that women are unnatural or demonic spawns of Satan. You're not spreading lies about women that they molest little boys, and have a secret agenda to corrupt America's youth. You're not trying to pass laws to make the "scent of a woman" illegal.
Those are all issues we hear on a daily basis from the anti-gay crowd.
It all really comes down to how society has developed. With such a long history of patriarchal systems and masculine normativity, it's no wonder two men being together is seen as icky, whereas 2 lesbians most guys find pretty hot. It's also due to it being relatively uncommon. Even if I see 2 guys kissing in public, I may make a double take, just because I hardly ever see it. When 95% of society is predominately heterosexual, it makes those type of encounters seem bizarre.
Sure, most hetero guys like seeing two women together - because they like women! The aversion to seeing two men kissing has little to do with "homophobia" for most guys. It's just a natural turn-off for them. To insinuate that they're bad people just because they have a negative reaction to two men kissing is silly. "Homophobia" in that type of situation is a natural reaction for most guys, just as I might be called "vaginaphobic" if I get a whiff of one that hasn't been cleaned for awhile.
So what your saying is that gays are the most frantical;hypocritical haters?Its most republicans that are in the closet that causes your problems. They are driven by hate to desire you and other gays?Get a grip;that is delussional:IMO.More like the rapist who thinks a women actually desires them and no means ;yes.
No, it's not bizarre. It may be unusual, but since we've seen many anti-gay public figures turn out to be homosexuals themselves, it's not far-fetched at all.
That's not a good comparison because atheism is a minority view. It takes more personal strength to come out as an atheist than it does to come out as a religious person.
A better comparison would be a woman who hates abortion and thinks it should be illegal - yet has had three of them herself.
I'm not talking about anti-gay public figures who are very much against homosexuality, I am speaking about regular joe smoes who disagree with homosexuality but don't make it a habit to talk about it, think about it, or discriminate against homosexuals. Why then would these individuals be closet homosexuals? You see, what I am speaking about is the difference between simply disagreeing with homosexuality AND being a homophobic in itself. I think there is a difference between the two. I could easily see a homophobic being a closet homosexual, but I have a harder time buying the argument that a person who simply dislikes homosexuality is a closet homosexual. In that case a person like me who dislikes spinach is secretly a spinach lover? Do you get what I mean? There's a different between being extremely repulsed, discriminating or harmful in the way in which you approach homosexuality and just simply not "liking" it.
And yes my religion argument is a fair comparison. No one is calling a person who is against religion a "mental disorder" or saying they secretly believe in God. Whether it's a minority of people, or a large portion of people, the whole notion that if one disagrees with homosexuality they are homophobic, have a mental disorder, or are closeted IS in fact bizarre and very narrow-minded. Not everyone will like homosexuality--they should not be forced to, to avoid being labeled as having mental disorder. And for that matter they shouldn't have to explain why they don't like it--they just don't. It's only when the dislike becomes dangerous, irrational or impedes the rights of others to where we can say that YES something is very wrong with that individual.
Last edited by sunkisses87; 07-08-2011 at 04:35 PM..
Well, constantly claiming disgust and revulsion about gays or what gays might do would fall under aversion. Trying to pass legislation to deny certain rights or privileges to gays would be discrimination, and being paranoid or obsessed with the idea that gays have some fascist agenda to corrupt small children and turn the world gay would fall under irrational fear.
I'd say a lot of the anti-gay crowd falls under one of those areas.
Finding something immoral could be deemed an aversion. Aversion means "strong dislike". Most anti-gays have a very very strong dislike of gays or what gays may or may not do in the bedroom.
I've never said it's not possible to dislike something without being averse or have a fear of it. But when you have so many people who spend more time attacking or ridiculing gays and talking about gay sex more than actual gays do, those people go beyond a mere disagreement, to the level of homophobia. If one feels the need to accuse gays of being part of some conspiracy or agenda to corrupt children, or if one tries to use their beliefs to deny gays rights or push for evil laws (such as Uganda's kill the gays bill), they are homophobic.
It's not actually all that bizarre. While I don't think all or even most strongly anti-gay people are secretly gay, there is in fact a strong correlation between the most rabidly anti-gay people, and those who are caught or later admit to being gay. Look how many prominent Republicans, pastors, televangelists, anti-gay organization founders, etc. who were caught with gay prostitutes, or admited to being gay later in their life. It's not a coincidence. Straight people who are secure with their sexuality generally do not care about gays or what gays do with their lives. Those who spend so much time criticizing gays or speaking to how unnatural it is, are more likely to be subconciously suppressing their own desires. I think you'd be amazed, if we could get actual statistics, as to how many so called "straight" men have fantasized or even experimented with the same sex at some point in their lives. Heck, they have books and videos on how common it is for military men to experiment with other men, and yet they have no problem gay bashing and will adamantly claim they are straight.
They are until they start forcing those beliefs on other people through the law. I consider conservative and fundamentalist Christians to very often being downright hateful, hypocritical, judgemental people, and I consider many of their beliefs to be immoral and totally out of line with Christianity, and yet I would never vote to pass laws banning them from holding those views or being judgemental hypocrites.
But the majority of anti-gay people that I know could honestly care less about homosexuals. They don't talk about it unless the topic is brought up, to which they will say their beliefs and move on. My point is that there seems to be an assumption that anyone that is anti-gay is spewing their hatred of homosexuals frequently, has tried to harm or discriminate homosexuals, and/or has an extreme aversion--when in fact they may just not like it but carry on with their daily lives.
Even some of the people I know--like my brother--who has somewhat of an aversion to homosexuality because of his religion, does not talk about homosexuality or care about it in the least EXCEPT in situations where people ask his beliefs about it.
The people that are going around spewing their hatred, discriminating, and who are so disgusted as they would not want to be around a homosexual are the ones in which I would say are homophobic. But I just don't "buy" the idea that most anti-gay people have these feelings. I suspect that there is quite a number, but I certainly don't think that "most" anti-gay people are homophobic are closeted.
I agree with you about those spending time passing laws, discriminating and so on ARE homophobic. I have never disagreed about that. In terms of children and propaganda--well I see that going on about a lot of things(politics, race, etc). For instance a thread was created talking about creating fat history month, ginger history month, etc--people just are in fear of a lot(it seems) and don't want their children exposed to what they fear. I think that's natural in a way.
I do agree that homophobics probably would have a tendency to be closeted. I have never disagreed with that. The only thing I disagree with is that those who don't like homosexuality but AREN'T homophobic have a mental disorder, are closeted, and so on. I think we all know the stories of the anti-gay spewing hating individuals who turn out to be gay. But I'm not talking about those people, I'm talking about the average joe that just doesn't like homosexuality but doesn't spend their time obsessing over it, passing laws, or preaching it at church.
The basic premise of this thread was that if someone is against homosexuality they are homophobic and therefore have a mental disorder. I disagreed with that, because being against homosexuality(for whatever reason) does not automatically make one a homophobic, which means that not every person against homosexuality has a mental disorder. And as I said before if this is what people really think, then it is in fact narrow-minded, because people do have a right to not like or disagree with "something"(even something as complex as sexuality) without being told they are "mental" for feeling as they do. Not everything is a disorder.
And yes my religion argument is a fair comparison. No one is calling a person who is against religion a "mental disorder" or saying they secretly believe in God.
It's a poor comparison for another reason: People choose to be religious. They don't choose to be attracted to a man or a woman - it just happens naturally.
It's a poor comparison for another reason: People choose to be religious. They don't choose to be attracted to a man or a woman - it just happens naturally.
My argument has nothing to do with homosexuality in and of itself (whether it is something we are born with or a choice or whatnot). It is solely focused on the FIRST post in this thread which posed the notion that if people are against homosexuality that means they are homophobic and that they have a mental disorder. My comparison only followed that logic: if a person is against religion, does it mean they have a phobia of religion, have a mental disorder, or secretly religious? Nope. So why then, if a person is against homosexuality are they told they have a phobia, a mental disorder or that they are closeted?
While you think it's apples and oranges, I think it applies very much to the premise of the thread. It seems like your going on another tangent--that I have not even focused on. What does this thread have to do with "homosexuality" and choice? If I remember correctly this thread is about those against homosexuality having a mental disorder for not "liking" it to which I think is narrow-minded and is not correct.
But going on your tangent(about homosexuality not being a choice)--for those that don't like homosexuality-even if homosexuals are born that way and have no control over who they love, why then is a person who doesn't like it or understand it then "forced" to like it or told that because they don't like it they have a disorder? For instance a person who is ugly, and was born that way--and other members of the opposite sex does not like him/her or find him/her attractive--well that "ugly" person has no control over how they look and how they were born, but it does not mean that people have to be attracted to him/her. Are they forced then to find that person attractive, just to avoid the scrutiny of being labeled with a disorder? Do you get what I'm saying. The notion that people can have a disorder SOLELY for not liking something is just incorrect to me.
I think that people are going to dislike a lot of things, and that no matter the reasoning, as long as that "dislike" is not dangerous, irrational, or extreme, then those individuals have that right to "dislike" or "disagree" with whatever they please without being labeled with a disorder.
Last edited by sunkisses87; 07-08-2011 at 05:18 PM..
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