Bernake: Gold is not money (regular, bill, market, against)

[HC475]

Originally Posted by Shankapotomus

Nothing is money. Even money is not money. Money is paper and metal. It's all in our freaking heads!!!! Lol...

Money is whatever we say it is... Feathers and seashells were used as money... It now costs 1.79 cents to make a penny...

[Neuling]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

But gold coins are just gold - and possibly some other minscule base metals for durability. The standardization is just for assurance that it is the proper quality and quantity.

I am not sure why you are engaging in all the nuance when asked to answer a simple question like 'is gold money?' Are you related to Bernake?

Sorry, but I think those nuances are important. Why do you think is the production of paper bills so complex these days? Because thanks to the spread of high-end photocopiers etc. almost anyone could print money if it weren't for all those additional security features. Those are all standards.
With gold or silver or whatever it is the same. The mere metal gold is not money in my view. Only in the mint is metal transformed into money.

An interesting question in this context might be: are ancient Roman or Greek coins considered money today? I don't think so, but they used to be 2000 years ago. Now they are just collectors's items like stamps or shellac records.

[Shankapotomus]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Well then please give me all your money

I'll give you all my money if you give me five acres of land in Woodstock ny with a stream on it.

Originally Posted by Neuling

Sorry, but I think those nuances are important. Why do you think is the production of paper bills so complex these days? Because thanks to the spread of high-end photocopiers etc. almost anyone could print money if it weren't for all those additional security features. Those are all standards.
With gold or silver or whatever it is the same. The mere metal gold is not money in my view. Only in the mint is metal transformed into money.

Well most people do not buy gold nuggets from our government or anyone for that matter - what do you think the questioned refered too? And our government does not store nuggets or place them in baggies with the weight and purity on some lable. All you simply had to do was answer a simple question about gold. By the way gold bars are standardized yet you said you would not consider them gold??

Also, making it harder to counterfit paper is only so the counterfiting remains with the government.

Originally Posted by Shankapotomus

I'll give you all my money if you give me five acres of land in Woodstock ny with a stream on it.

Sure, I got a piece of paper with the deed to that land that looks really offical - I'll trade you.

[HC475]

Everybody on this thread is missing the entire point of Ron Paul's questions to Bernanke... The "FED" is a private foreign bank that is trying to devalue the U.S. Dollar...

They want to merge the Euro with the Amero...

[Neuling]

Originally Posted by Shiloh1

Well most people do not buy gold nuggets from our government or anyone for that matter - what do you think the questioned refered too? And our government does not store nuggets or place them in baggies with the weight and purity on some lable. All you simply had to do was answer a simple question about gold. By the way gold bars are standardized yet you said you would not consider them gold??

Also, making it harder to counterfit paper is only so the counterfiting remains with the government.

Gold bars may be standardized, but do they meet the purpose of money? How many people have access to gold bars? Except for a few rich ones hardly anyone. Money needs to be practical. When during the war German money lost so much of its value that one had to take a bag full of bills to the bakery just to get a loaf of bread, it kind of ceased to be money as it was not practical anymore.
Also, money has to be accepted by everyone. If I have a dollar bill I know I can use it anywhere as money. With gold someone might simply say no sorry, we don't accept gold. What would we do with a nugget of gold?! It only involves additional effort...

Since you mention purity. With modern coins purity does not really matter in terms of value. It may only serve to tell whether a coin is counterfeited or not, but it doesn't influence the value of the coin, like the purer, the more valuable.

Originally Posted by Neuling

Gold bars may be standardized, but do they meet the purpose of money? How many people have access to gold bars? Except for a few rich ones hardly anyone. Money needs to be practical. When during the war German money lost so much of its value that one had to take a bag full of bills to the bakery just to get a loaf of bread, it kind of ceased to be money as it was not practical anymore.
Also, money has to be accepted by everyone. If I have a dollar bill I know I can use it anywhere as money. With gold someone might simply say no sorry, we don't accept gold. What would we do with a nugget of gold?! It only involves additional effort...

Since you mention purity. With modern coins purity does not really matter in terms of value. It may only serve to tell whether a coin is counterfeited or not, but it doesn't influence the value of the coin, like the purer, the more valuable.

Look, I get all that - the point was no one was talking about bars - not even Paul or Bernake. If a gold or silver coin is money - medium of exchange - what effort is there to just exchange it again - furthermore, you can have paper backed by gold, silver, copper, ect. FRN's are practically worthless and subject to inflation.

The only reason peple think that FRN's are better than coins or paper backed money is that they are decieved - there is a collective stupidity perpetuated by those who love legalized theft - they have gotten people used to it by way of habit and deception not reason.

[GuyNTexas]

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

Don't worry, you're communicating your point very clearly - it's just that you're mistaken.

If the analogy was worth a can of beans, which it isn't. If I lived in a bean-based economy, I'd be an idiot to carry my beans with me. Instead, I'd lock them up in a warehouse and issue bean certificates, to be used in trade. Or, even better, just call the bean warehouse and ask them to sign over 20 of my cans of beans to the Red Lion, to settle my bar tab.

(Could we make it jam and marmalade instead of beans? That would make for the establishment of - wait for it - the Federal Preserve Bank. Hah! I slay me.)

Sounds to me that you're advocating the same thing I am, but don't even realize it! You suggest that if it were up to you ... you'd keep your beans in a warehouse, and issue bean certificates. Well, that's what we used to do here in the good ole US of A .... we kept our "silver dollars" in a warehouse, and issued dollar certificates that you could take to the warehouse and exchange for the silver dollar at any time. But like the silver certificates ... your bean certificates aren't worth squat, if there are no beans in the warehouse! Would you expect the Red Lion to accept your bean certificates if they knew you had no beans? What good would your bean certificates be? Worthless ... and an act of fraud by attempting to pass them of as representing beans.

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

Why, the more valuable item, of course. But I'd not be wanting the silver dollars for their monetary value (10$) - rather for their intrinsic value. It'd be barter.

Now you're just playing a game of semantics. There is no difference between monetary and intrinsic value ... in this case there is only value. Let's be honest, you'd select the 10 Silver dollars because they represent a greater monetary exchange value of $400, rather than the $10 the bill represents in monetary exchange value.

Word games such as this ain't going to work on me friend.

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

I'm pointing out that your counterarguemnt - that with computers being a modern invention, money must have been intrinsically valuable until recently, is mistaken.

No it's not even close to mistaken ... even donuts have some intrinsic value .. whereas digits on a computer screen have no value whatsoever .. they're donut holes ... because there is no physical substance. In fact, they have negative value, as it requires resources in equipment and energy just to maintain the electronic digit in it's electronic format.

But Gold and Silver coins have been around for almost 3,000 years, the first of which was the Lydian Lion, from Asia Minor, circa 600 BC, made of gold and silver. And countless examples throughout history. Various forms of "currency" had intrinsic value, including "trade beads" that Europeans used to use in trade with Native Americans. The Native Americans used the beads for jewelry, which they used to trade with other tribes, and was viewed as a status symbol. Electronic money has no value because it simply doesn't exist ... it's an illusion.

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

You consider fractional reserve banking fraud?

Absolutely. And if you don't, you either don't know what fractional reserve banking is, or you don't know what fraud is.

I'll define both for you ... Fraud : wrongful or criminal deception for the purpose of financial or personal gain.

Now lets see if FRB could possibly fit that definition? Is banking done for financial gain of the bankers? YES ... they don't do it as a public service or convenience, but for profit ... which is why they charge interest.

Now, does it involve wrongful or criminal deception? YES. There is not an industry in existence that employs more criminal and wrongful deception than does banking. The very roots of the "Fractional Reserve System" was born of a fraud. It started with the opening of a depository (bank) to safeguard people's money ... safe keeping in a secure vault or guarded location ... for a fee to protect people's money from theft. The bankers realized after some time that people tended to leave most of their money in the vault, and only withdrew small amounts needed from time to time, leaving the rest of it sitting there. So the Banker decided ... hey, I've got all this money sitting in my vault collecting dust ... when it could be making interest. So, they decided to take some of that money (theft) and loan it to others, and charge interest which they put into their pockets, unbeknown to their depositors who thought their money was safely under lock and key. So under the guise of protecting people's money against theft, the banker himself stole the money, gambling that not everyone would show up and want to withdraw all of their money at the same time, for which he would be unable to give them (since the money was gone). It was pure fraud, and this was the foundation for "Fractional Reserve Banking" scheme.

The fact is, the term Fractional Reserve Banking is a fraud at face value .. it started as a fraud and was simply "legalized" fraud by the banking industry that writes the banking laws. If you were to do this as an individual, you'd be locked up for fraud. And the scheme worked so well, that they decided to eliminate the metals backed monetary system, replacing it with a "fiat" currency based on no backing of the currency with tangible "assets". This allows the bankers to create and loan (and collect interest) on an unlimited amount of money for nothing other than the cost of paper and ink.

The Federal Reserve System is by far not the first fiat based fractional reserve banking system... the reality is this is the old English system which required Great Britain to be an Imperial power of conquest and control to keep the system operating. And all such similar systems before it were just as fraudulent .. and every single one of them in history have eventually inflated the currency to the point of total failure .. every single one, no exceptions. It's an inevitability for such systems to fail ... the only way to keep money creation under control is to tie it to a tangible asset ... the moment you make it legal to create money from nothing but paper and ink ... the clock is ticking, and failure of the system is simply a matter of time.

So you have multiple levels of deception for financial gain which is the definition of fraud. Most people have no idea that their money isn't really sitting safely secured in the bank ... until there is a crisis, and a subsequent "run on the bank" with all depositors showing up to withdraw their money ... only to find out that the bank is only required to keep $10 on hand for every $100 people deposit.

Of course there are several other layers of fraud occurring too ... lending money and charging interest on money that doesn't even exist except in a fraudulent accounting system that considers Bank liabilities (loans) as actual assets simply because they have a loan document which is a promissory instrument they count as an asset which in turn allows them to take that amount and also create 9 times it's value in more funny money accounting for more loans at interest, which are then counted as more assets ... etc. etc. etc. But when many of these loans default ... it snow balls because they were counted as assets, and the basis for 9 other loans. You want to know how the financial system got into a chaotic crisis? That's how .... one fraud stacked atop another fraud, stacked atop another .... like a house of cards.

The bottom line is you cannot possibly have a grasp of how the system operates without immediately recognizing the incomprehensible level of fraud being committed.

The facts are ... the entire modern financial system as it operates now is the greatest scam ever conceived and implemented. Top to bottom, side to side, and inside out ... nothing but a total fraud by any definition of the word.

It's not even debatable.

[Dane_in_LA]

Originally Posted by GuyNTexas

Now you're just playing a game of semantics. There is no difference between monetary and intrinsic value ...

Hold that thought...

Let's be honest, you'd select the 10 Silver dollars because they represent a greater monetary exchange value of $400, rather than the $10 the bill represents in monetary exchange value.

The silver dollars represent an intrinsic value of $400, and a monetary value of $10. So yes, there is a marked difference between intrinsic and monetary value, and you just used that difference to make a point.

Electronic money has no value because it simply doesn't exist ... it's an illusion.

And yet, the nice people at Amazon people ship goods to my door when I send a modulated bitstream that represents a credit card number.

The very roots of the "Fractional Reserve System" was born of a fraud. It started with the opening of a depository (bank) to safeguard people's money ... safe keeping in a secure vault or guarded location ... for a fee to protect people's money from theft. The bankers realized after some time that people tended to leave most of their money in the vault, and only withdrew small amounts needed from time to time, leaving the rest of it sitting there. So the Banker decided ... hey, I've got all this money sitting in my vault collecting dust ... when it could be making interest. So, they decided to take some of that money (theft) and loan it to others, and charge interest which they put into their pockets, unbeknown to their depositors who thought their money was safely under lock and key.

The customers of, say, the Medici bankers were quite aware that their money was being lent. How else would they gain interest? Gold pieces in a vault do not procreate. Wine and cheese benefit from aging, money not so much.

The fact is, the term Fractional Reserve Banking is a fraud at face value .. it started as a fraud and was simply "legalized" fraud by the banking industry that writes the banking laws.

So it's not criminal. You feel strongly that it should be, I can tell.

This allows the bankers to create and loan (and collect interest) on an unlimited amount of money for nothing other than the cost of paper and ink.

How do you feel the money supply should be expanded?

Most people have no idea that their money isn't really sitting safely secured in the bank

Then they're idiots.

The facts are ... the entire modern financial system as it operates now is the greatest scam ever conceived and implemented. Top to bottom, side to side, and inside out ... nothing but a total fraud by any definition of the word.

While I'm not disagreeing that most modern bankers are pond scum, the fractional reserve system in and of itself isn't necessarily fraudulent.

Having a fixed money supply in growing economy leads to deflation, and that's pretty much the definition of disaster. Well, I guess it self-regulates - because the economy will stop growing really quick.

It's not even debatable.[/quote]