In '85 the top 5% wealthiest had $8 trillion, now they have a net worth of $40 trillion. (fast food, insurance)

[LaTrang]

Originally Posted by lionking

Under your no accountability policy if I as a American, if I have the drive and talent like say in advanced weapons design I and my shareholders should be free to sell them to America's enemies if it profits me the most.

Hey I worked for it, it is my company , thank Gawd to America for allowing me to reach my full potential. I fly my American flag on my house to show my thankfulness. Government stay out of my business......

You have done a masterful job of stringing a bunch of otherwise-usable words into a pile of complete, nonsensical gibberish. Try again, and this time try to make sense, and stay within earshot of reality.

[LaTrang]

Originally Posted by Tk101

So what about the fact that countries with the widest gap amongst poor and rich have significant socioeconomic issues? Is that not a problem?

America has virtually no poor (by world standards). What we call poor, are middle-class or better in much, if not most, of the rest of the world. The possible exception are the bums that infest our gutters, but that is their choice, not society's fault. In America, if a bum wants to be a bum, pergra, carry on.

[lucknow]

Originally Posted by LaTrang

America has virtually no poor (by world standards). What we call poor, are middle-class or better in much, if not most, of the rest of the world. The possible exception are the bums that infest our gutters, but that is their choice, not society's fault. In America, if a bum wants to be a bum, pergra, carry on.

Is that so? Well I guess that you don't travel around the USA very much. If you did you would understand just how wrong your statement is.
I spent the last 4 years travellng all over the USA. All 48 lower states and crisscrossing all of them. I have seen worse living conditions than the worst slums in Panama city. I have seen kids who's only decent meal of the day they get at school. Ive seen poverty in Appalachia that would be just unbelievable to anyone who thinks America is the best country in the world. I have been in slums in Camden NJ where the ground is full of lead and other heavy metals. Half the homes are fallen down and then just lay there for years. The streets are full of garbage and trash. I have seen these same conditions in Chicago where an entire district resembled what you would expect a post war city to look like. I've been in an area of Florida where the houses had no windows or doors and half the people could not read or write.

Don't dare to tell me there is no poverty in the USA. That is just ignorant and a Know nothing statement.

[lucknow]

I'm thinking that most of the posters here are missing one of the main points of the entire discussion. Work is honourable. I don't care if you are cutting lettuce in a kitchen somewhere or standing behind a counter serving customers. The country will always need menial workers of hundreds of different kinds. I really don't care what it takes be it minimum wages or social benefits or whatever, every worker deserves a wage that they can live a decent life on. Put a roof over their heads, feed themselves and their family, get medical attention when needed, recieve a good public education and all kind of other benefits of living in a wealthy country.

Now if those workers can't have the basic necessities of life derived from their work then capitalism is a failure anyway you want to look at it. It becomes nothing more than a system of oppression and expliotation. If the corporate world is either unwilling or unable to give their workers a living wage then it's up to the government to make sure these people are not denyed the basics of life. There are only so many ways to do that. They can tax the wealthy heavily and use that money to alleviate some of the poverty that is the fault of these same corporate entities. They can raise the minimum wage to a point where every worker is getting a just return on his labour. These types of things you can do within a free enterprise system and the system can survive and flourish dispite what the elite rich owners cry. The alternative to this type of solution is that the working people finally have had enough and end the entire system as it has been known. You have a revolution and all the owners are now in concentration camps where most do not come out from. That is the end result of greed and self centeredness. It's happened way too many times in the world's history.
You would really think the owner class would have a clue and do what is not only right but is necessary for their own survival.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by LaTrang

You have done a masterful job of stringing a bunch of otherwise-usable words into a pile of complete, nonsensical gibberish. Try again, and this time try to make sense, and stay within earshot of reality.

It isn't any more unrealistic than some of the absolutes I read by certain posters on both sides of opinion.

"Mo and ma are responsible for their own demise because they over spend and don't advance themselves the way they should", "if they didn't blow their money on a big screen tv they would be able to afford the jacked health premium", rich people are always responsible for creating jobs", "government regulation always hinders advancement and jobs", "rich people seek to bring down the common man", " rich people have more than they need just because" are examples of absolutes I have read by both sides.

My point I am trying to make to both sides I have seen in this thread is rich people aren't always evil and they shouldn't be capped on wealth just for the sake of capping wealth but government also represents the people not just business and business should have accountability and contribute to the nation just like anyone else. When the practices of business or the rich hurt everyday people it is not surprising to me that the people would turn to government to regulate the rich and businesses.

This isn't about envy, this is about the everyday person seeing their bills and premiums get jacked up while the shareholders and CEO's of that control these business increase their wealth 2 or 3 fold. That these shareholders and CEO's who were already super rich who will never know the fear of not being able to pay for medical treatment get bailed out with trillion dollar bailouts while the everyday person's life becomes harder to maintain but are told they must endure or they should get off their lazy butt and work harder for the sake of the nation and how those gawd damn politicians in both major parties pander to the rich and only give lip service to the everyday American to get voted in.

I applaud the super rich for what they have, I don't care if they have five Rolls Royce and 5 private islands but I don't have sympathy for them when it comes to contributing into healthcare for instance, when even after taxation they still live beyond what most people could imagine and will never have to worry about a hospital bill costing a lifetimes savings.

I applaud the CEO and shareholders when they invest into a company that excels by being better than the other through service and better products and thus profits but not when their decisions and policies hurt the everyday person while they increase their wealth because of such.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by ahigherway

A person can't have 5 Ferrari's and 5 airplanes without diminishing the lives of others. No economy can permit all people to be rich.



Peace,
brian

John Travolta does and I can't think of a way he has diminished my life as far as I know. Actually I like some of his movies and have entertained me making my life better. Same with Gates. I think they deserve what they have and even If I didn't think they do, it should be just opinion not by capping their earning capability.

Now having said that I do believe there are certain issues where they should contribute to the nation and that means taxes. Some argue that any tax is controlling someone income I do not agree however the taxation should be regulated as to not be wasteful.

As far as work is good and work is hard for everybody so everybody deserves I'll agree with you some but mostly disagree.

A roofer works very hard compared to some other careers but the fact is some people have more drive, more talent and skills in a certain field that are determined to be more important in society than other careers or fields. And even though a roofer busts his ass in ways most of us don't or couldn't the fact is a doctor or engineer for example are careers that have been made more important in society and thus pays more and they deserve it in my opinion because there are less people capable of doing that compared to roofing.

Now having said that, Joe the roofer should have his take in society also and should be able to live and pay for the the things that need to be in life when it comes to being able to continue living. This is where my issue in this thread comes in where that roofer or the guy who makes roofing tiles use to make a living that allowed him to live decently and now is faced with struggling to maintain because his job was given to a illega or off shoredl and his health premium doubled or tripled in the meantime while the shareholders and CEO of the roofing company and insurance company became richer.

[LaTrang]

Originally Posted by lucknow

Is that so? Well I guess that you don't travel around the USA very much. If you did you would understand just how wrong your statement is.
I spent the last 4 years travellng all over the USA. All 48 lower states and crisscrossing all of them. I have seen worse living conditions than the worst slums in Panama city. I have seen kids who's only decent meal of the day they get at school. Ive seen poverty in Appalachia that would be just unbelievable to anyone who thinks America is the best country in the world. I have been in slums in Camden NJ where the ground is full of lead and other heavy metals. Half the homes are fallen down and then just lay there for years. The streets are full of garbage and trash. I have seen these same conditions in Chicago where an entire district resembled what you would expect a post war city to look like. I've been in an area of Florida where the houses had no windows or doors and half the people could not read or write.

Don't dare to tell me there is no poverty in the USA. That is just ignorant and a Know nothing statement.

Yes, Obama has done a great job of bringing America to the brink of disaster.

[EricGold]

[quote=lucknow;20046241]

I think you for being very clear in your views, many on the left aren't capable of that....that being said, this is profoundly disturbing and a

Work is honourable. I don't care if you are cutting lettuce in a kitchen somewhere or standing behind a counter serving customers. The country will always need menial workers of hundreds of different kinds. I really don't care what it takes be it minimum wages or social benefits or whatever, every worker deserves a wage that they can live a decent life on. Put a roof over their heads, feed themselves and their family, get medical attention when needed, recieve a good public education and all kind of other benefits of living in a wealthy country.

Amazing, simply amazing, that's like saying everyone deserve to pass class for just showing up and signing their names on the papers.....you don't deserve anything but to be left alone...that's it...you and your property are the only things you are entitled to....you are not entitled to anything else...if you can't earn it, then why the hell should you "deserve" it?.....

Now if those workers can't have the basic necessities of life derived from their work then capitalism is a failure anyway you want to look at it.

well, we really don't have capitalism/free markets...I, first hand have been blocked from things because of the govt....we have very little free markets....no where near what we should have.....but, anyways the fact that you can't take care of yourself isn't because of your fault its the "system" fault and its not even the system of massive corporatism and govt corruption...nooo, its the capitalism/free markets....

I mean honestly, why do you people think men being free to drive themselves is such a horrible concept?....do you need to be controlled that badly?

It becomes nothing more than a system of oppression and expliotation. If the corporate world is either unwilling or unable to give their workers a living wage then it's up to the government to make sure these people are not denyed the basics of life. There are only so many ways to do that.

no one is forced to work for anyone or anything....you are not being "oppressed"...so you don't have any skills that would allow you to have multiple options...who fault is that but your own?..and you are payed what you are worth...no what you "deserve".....sorry...you are not being "denied" anything ....because its not handed to you doesn't mean you are being kept from it...

I don't like the fact that Micheal Moore has earned millions from basically telling left-wing loons how horrible America is...but guess what?....if he can deliver a product that the gullible masses deem worthy enough to spend their money on....then more power to him...rock on Moore...

They can tax the wealthy heavily and use that money to alleviate some of the poverty that is the fault of these same corporate entities. They can raise the minimum wage to a point where every worker is getting a just return on his labour.

We are suppose to raise taxes to fund the overall infrastructure...not to "equalize" society or "social justice".....and believe it or not but some poverty is due to people own bad decisions, at this point it seems as if you want to absolve people of personal responsibility....

and again, you are paid what you are worth, not what you think your "just return" is...and who decides that?....if not the market or the job provider themselves, then who?...funny how you think those how actually pay the wages don't get to determine what the wages should be..

and if you don't like your wages then leave...you are not forced to be there....this absolving of personal responsibility mixed with a bizarre sense of entitlement is disturbing..

These types of things you can do within a free enterprise system

now how the hell the govt and others dictating enterprise seem anything like "free" to you?

and the system can survive and flourish dispite what the elite rich owners cry. The alternative to this type of solution is that the working people finally have had enough and end the entire system as it has been known. You have a revolution and all the owners are now in concentration camps where most do not come out from. That is the end result of greed and self centeredness. It's happened way too many times in the world's history.
You would really think the owner class would have a clue and do what is not only right but is necessary for their own survival.

really?...you who think people "deserve" a decent life for just existing....never mind their work and contributions...they just deserve to have all their basic problems taking care of for just breathing....and you want to point the finger at others and call others greedy?....really?...at least those people are working for it and not demanding it be handed to them.....

and how are they and others greedy for not wanting to pay for other people lives?....pay for your own damn life...

and I am so sick of hearing that "the rich better pay up or we are going to slit their throats" talking point...I have been hearing that for years...I mean, so they don't want to give you what you think you "deserve" so you are just going to take it?.."yeah I shouldn't change to acquire what I want, why should I take responsibility for that?"...I should just take it.....and yet you people want to call others greedy...

the past was ruled by dukes, kings, emperors, etc....so yes, the populace may have risen against their rulers (although I am not to sure they got sent to concentration camps and I am sure it didn't happen as often as you think but whatever) but that doesn't even remotely compare to anything going on today....why?...well you name one wealthy person that rules over a land and its citizens.....I'll give you one...tell me how Bill Gates...the head dog him self, ruling over land and its people...

your whole rant didn't mention politicians, entertainers, athletes celebrities etc...extremely typical, they are never mentioned in these run of the mill rants...they are never called greedy, (working 3 months and then collecting a 20 million check is OK, but be a CEO with a 5 million dollar salary for the entire year and you are somehow greedy, go figure)....

you are not entitled or deserve anything but what you have earned...sorry, you may think you do, that doesn't mean others have to give it to you unless you want to control them...which wouldn't surprise me...b

I myself have seen what d*cks corporate executives can be....so I chose not to associate with them....that is what it means to have individual liberty, to be free from being forced to do anything....but you people don't want that responsibility of freedom...you want to force and organize society to bend to your own desires...its not my fault that you people can't take control of your own lives or just made alot of bad decisions and are now "stuck".....in a free world everything isn't going to be perfect because people are not perfect...but I would gladly live in one to be free....even with those corporate d*cks..

you people like to think of yourselves as "noble" because you aren't getting what you "deserve" so you just want to take it.....I mean really, the world doesn't revolve around you, stop trying to get it to do so because you think you "deserve" something..

[ahigherway]

If man was governed by his conscience, all people would work, and the government (if any were needed) would be concerned for ALL its citizens, including the ones who cannot provide as much as the rest. Competition, if it existed, would be for the common good, and people would live by sharing rather than making war.

To me, that's what true religion is.


Aisi, of course!


Peace,
brian

[lucknow]

Originally Posted by LaTrang

Yes, Obama has done a great job of bringing America to the brink of disaster.

The conditions were just the same during to previous administration. Go ahead and blame Obama and see how far that goes to fixing what is broken in America. It will go nowhere and if you elect the other goofballs things arte likely to get worse for the average American.