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The working poor wouldn't have to be so poor if employers paid a better wage. $8 hr is not a good wage. Since many Americans work for small businesses, I don't really see any rise in wages for a lot of people anytime soon. Small business have to compete with the superstores.
I do believe that many of the rich in this country got wealthy by being greedy and taking advantage of others. As far as thrifty people go, the wealthiest people I know are also too cheap to tip the hard working waitress the 15% and run through toll booths. The don't ever spend much on their children or don't have kids at all. Yeah people save a fortune at the expense of others. But I guess that is a moral dilemna.
There will always be some poverty due to the chronically unemployble, but for those who work hard, it would be nice if the bosses loosen the purse strings a little.
What is wealth, though? Do capitalists create it or merely direct its production? The employees are the ones who actually "create" the products and services that monetary wealth buys. Even the capital that employers provide to employees is usually created at the physical level by employees, except for the small buisness owner who builds his own shop from scratch, or situations like that. Employers/capitalists usually aid in "wealth's creation" by providing the initial idea, money, and possibly management skills but they're only a piece of the delicious tasty wealth creation pie, which is also occupied by amazing and orange-flavored delights such as "Achievers" and "Underachievers" as you put it, good general!
One day in 1872, Mother Magheard was talking to her two children. The older child Carbunkle had two un-amputated, fully healthy legs. The other child, Jonas Maynard the Third, also had two un-amputated, fully healthy legs. Magherd liked Carbunkle a lot more than Jonas so she decided to send Jonas out on his own with only $10 and Carbunkle out on his own with $50000. Magheard, a staunch defender of personal responsibility, said these wise words to the children:
"My son Jonas Maynard the Third, you should be very mad at yourself if you do not do as well in life as Carbunkle, for though I have given you less than I have given Carbunkle, you STILL HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES BUT NOT TO THE SAME EXTENT! I mean, you both have money! Your money isn't different than his money so you still have the same opportunities, but, you know, he just has more of them, 49990 them to be exact. But since you both have the same type of money you still have the same opportunities!
"Do you not have two healthy working legs?"
"No I do not not have those, by which I double-negatively mean that I in fact do have that of which you speak." responded Jonas the Third, understanding her great wisdom.
"Then you have the same opportunities! If you end up poorer than Carbunkle you're a bum. LIFE ISN'T FAIR! Remember that and remember it well my son."
Greater wisdom had not been heard throughout the land in many years, and the slogan "LIFE ISN'T FAIR" was subsequently adopted throughout the Americas as an awesome, effective cop out in discussions about any type of injustice, inequity, or misfortune. Hoorah!
By reducing taxes, removing the inefficiency of the government bureaucracy,
....private bureaucracys are never inefficient! Taxes are never low enough.
Very little that doesn't turn a profit is worthwhile. Vote Libertarian!
Or fewer individuals would have the resources to do the same because those few would gather the resources up when it became easier to do so?
Maybe not but it gives them rightful claim to a share of the benefits (monetary or otherwise) that are derived from the property they use and create. How much? How do you know "whatever the hell the glorious employer wants to pay the sewer vermin" is necessarily a close approximation to the employee's "rightful claim?" Should the employer's profits be proportional to the effort and expertise he provides in running the business or simply as high as he/she/it can possibly make them?
How do capitalists create jobs? Do they build factories or order factories to be built?
Without the wealthy throughout history production would have remained decentralized and the human race would possibly be less technologically advanced... would people be richer or poorer overall? I don't know.
Without menial, bottom-level labor the human race would likely have died out long ago, and would likely today, too.
Don't kid yourself Sir John of the Amazons!
Also if you don't understand any of this it's probably because I was stoned when I wrote it.
You sir, have the gift fo gab. That was a fine fairytale but flawed as an accurate demonstration of what I interpret as your point that opportunities are not equal amongst the populace. For your viewpoint to be considered a reasonable portrayal of American life, one would need to ignore the accomplishments of many poor inner-city children who have taken advantage of the opportunities and accomplished what their individual ambitions has allowed, ignoring the obvious obstatcles of their environment.
Though you attempt to poke fun at me and my "life isn't fair" phrase, you cannot provide any solution, other than the theory of total communism, to eliminate this fact of life. Since we all know this cannot be done, this fact should not be used as an excuse to underachieve but as a challenge to participate in the struggle to achieve the American dream, where one can be proud to have accomplished what, to some who victimize themselves, seems to be an unobtainable goal.
Capitalists create jobs in a variety of ways, including enlisting the help of other capitalists and their laborers. A built factory does not a job make. A concept, an idea, and/or an investment in either time, resources, or both needs to be developed and/or made. In most cases, these laborers are justly compensated according to their contributions, through wages and other benefits, according to their employment contract. To extend to them any more compensation would be to justify them in turn compensating their school teachers, daycare workers, doctors, and any number of individuals who have helped them sustain their lives to this point. Though menial laborers do indeed contribute substantially to the U.S. economy, their contributions are recognized and compensated for in various ways including their wages and benefits from their employers and the availability of services created by the capitalists/achievers.
The working poor wouldn't have to be so poor if employers paid a better wage. $8 hr is not a good wage. Since many Americans work for small businesses, I don't really see any rise in wages for a lot of people anytime soon. Small business have to compete with the superstores.
I do believe that many of the rich in this country got wealthy by being greedy and taking advantage of others. As far as thrifty people go, the wealthiest people I know are also too cheap to tip the hard working waitress the 15% and run through toll booths. The don't ever spend much on their children or don't have kids at all. Yeah people save a fortune at the expense of others. But I guess that is a moral dilemna.
There will always be some poverty due to the chronically unemployble, but for those who work hard, it would be nice if the bosses loosen the purse strings a little.
The monetarily poor will always be poor because of their habits, not because of their wages. In a large majority of the poor lottery winners, they are once again monetarily poor in a short period of time. Yes, some of the wealthy people in this country are crooks as are some of the poor, another fact of life. I'm not sure where you live but those that I know who are considered wealthy do everything possible for their children (yes, they have children), even to the point of spoiling them. Look at Paris Hilton and Nicole Ritchie for example.
[quote=southernlady5464;1271184]You know, my daughter always complained "Life wasn't fair" when something wasn't going HER way...
As an adult, we accept that life isn't fair...Liz[/QUOTE
If people did just accept that life wasn't fair there would still be slavery, wife battering and marital rape would still be legal and we would have no human rights at all. There would be no labour or safety laws at all and children would still be sent down mines to work like slaves. Women wouldn't have the vote . Human rights and fairness does not fall out of the trees, we all have a part in getting them and fighting for better conditions for all fellow human beings.
Accepting life isn't fair is condoning every single appalling act of injustice ever perpetrated in history.
What a complete cop-out. Life isn't fair because some people do nothing to make it fairer. Life isn't fair because it is not in their interest to fight injustice and try to right wrongs.
Life isn't fair because people are selfish , greedy and apathetic and because they don't give a damn about others and how their actions impact on them. Because as long as "I'm OK who gives a fig about whether people starve or not".
The true heroes in our society are the people who fight to redress the balance and make life just that little bit more just and equitable.
The Suffragettes, Slave abolitionists, human right activists and people who actually care about people being paid a decent living wage for working hard, all these are the people we should look up to. People who don't just accept that "life isn't fair". Nothing will ever change if we sit on our buts and just shrug.
You have to fight for what is right and the only responsible "adult" way to be is to challenge injustice and human wrongs.
It is not in the interest of corporations and employers to give you rights, and better wages, if it is not mandatory then nothing will ever happen. This is why some people have spent their lives and sometimes lost them so that we are all treated with dignity and compassion. And these people have achieved a great deal already.
Exactly how is life going to get fairer with your kind of attitude and complacence towards the most vulnerable and disadvantaged in society.
What ludicrous, sanctimonious and patronising rubbish some people spout. Quite frankly the mind boggles.
Poverty is something which should not exist in a civilised and wealthy society. It's archaic, and abhorrent as well as a sign of societal failure. We are ALL part of society whether at the bottom or the top of the ladder and I will never understand how some people can be so complacent about basic human rights.
A Nation should be judged by how it treats its poor and it seems America like many others is pretty bad at it.
I don't think that's the argument at all. I would say the vast majority of Americans believe in giving the working poor a fair shake.
Many of the occupations you listed are soildly middle class, which we all should support.
You're slowly drifitng into hyperbole. There's nothing wrong with migrant workers picking lettuce. Just come here legally. And yet more of these jobs you're listing are middle class.
MLK came from a well-off family. So did FDR, JFK, and many other social reformers. Being rich is not evil, being greedy is. You sound envious, which is one of the most deadly sins.
Nobody "does it themselves", including the Poor. Who gave you your job?
Yes, many AMERICANS do look down at the unfortunate. Just read some blogs that are out there and many of the people who stated so on this forum.
I listed those jobs so people could understand that wealthier people do not look at these occupations when they talk about people less fortunate as them. I bet Paris Hilton would never think about the person who drives her around all day. My staement was made because AmazingJohn made the comment that unfortunate people are lazy. Until you know how it is to work two jobs and still not be able to afford everything then how do you know what is their mindset? My dad went to work as a construction worker and my mom was a secretary for the government. Neither one of them had a college degree. We lived in a one bedroom apartment in Washington DC. They went to work everyday and so did our neighbors, but we were not rich, no one around us was rich. It is very easy to say that we live in the land of opportunities, but no one thinks that those opportunities often leave someone down so that you can step up.
Look at slavery. Europeans could not have made this country without slaves. They worked and worked and worked and sacrificed so you and I, no matter what race could have what we have today.America would be nothing without slaves. Were did you think all the money in this country came from? Out of thin air? No. It came from the slaves picking cotton, tobacco, rice, wheat and sugar. Did the Europeans ever get out there to help? No. Yet they still treated them like animals, when they did all the hard work!
Look at jobs. You got the position, someone else did not. There is always opportunities, yet American culture is an individualistic society. It will always be someone left at the bottom so rich people can get richer! No one can deny that fact.
And how do I sound greedy? The rich who capitalize off of the unfortunate are the greedy ones. IT IS 2007! All of our politicians are GREEDY. Even the people who are "supposed" to be for the people are GREEDY! I know you didn't just call me greedy! I pray every night for those who have less than I. Please do not get me on the issue of religion and who needs some in their lives.
And yes, again, many wealthy think that they gained their wealth by themselves. I do not know what planet you live on, but I hear that very often. I know that I have not got to where I am today by myself. My mother and grandmother who gave me courage and taught me that being humble will get you very far.My mother who helped me with my homework, and who helped me write my college essay. My dad who pays my tuition. My church community that sent prayers and lifted me up. My counselor at school who told me that I could do anything. The government that allowed me to work as an intern, so that I could get my foot in the door.
With all that, I still know that being unfortunate does not come from being lazy, it comes from lack of educaton and skills, and the lack of jobs in an area where no jobs can be found. Get off your high horse and open your eyes!
Yes, many AMERICANS do look down at the unfortunate. Just read some blogs that are out there and many of the people who stated so on this forum.
I listed those jobs so people could understand that wealthier people do not look at these occupations when they talk about people less fortunate as them. I bet Paris Hilton would never think about the person who drives her around all day. My staement was made because AmazingJohn made the comment that unfortunate people are lazy. Until you know how it is to work two jobs and still not be able to afford everything then how do you know what is their mindset? My dad went to work as a construction worker and my mom was a secretary for the government. Neither one of them had a college degree. We lived in a one bedroom apartment in Washington DC. They went to work everyday and so did our neighbors, but we were not rich, no one around us was rich. It is very easy to say that we live in the land of opportunities, but no one thinks that those opportunities often leave someone down so that you can step up.
Look at slavery. Europeans could not have made this country without slaves. They worked and worked and worked and sacrificed so you and I, no matter what race could have what we have today.America would be nothing without slaves. Were did you think all the money in this country came from? Out of thin air? No. It came from the slaves picking cotton, tobacco, rice, wheat and sugar. Did the Europeans ever get out there to help? No. Yet they still treated them like animals, when they did all the hard work!
Look at jobs. You got the position, someone else did not. There is always opportunities, yet American culture is an individualistic society. It will always be someone left at the bottom so rich people can get richer! No one can deny that fact.
And how do I sound greedy? The rich who capitalize off of the unfortunate are the greedy ones. IT IS 2007! All of our politicians are GREEDY. Even the people who are "supposed" to be for the people are GREEDY! I know you didn't just call me greedy! I pray every night for those who have less than I. Please do not get me on the issue of religion and who needs some in their lives.
And yes, again, many wealthy think that they gained their wealth by themselves. I do not know what planet you live on, but I hear that very often. I know that I have not got to where I am today by myself. My mother and grandmother who gave me courage and taught me that being humble will get you very far.My mother who helped me with my homework, and who helped me write my college essay. My dad who pays my tuition. My church community that sent prayers and lifted me up. My counselor at school who told me that I could do anything. The government that allowed me to work as an intern, so that I could get my foot in the door.
With all that, I still know that being unfortunate does not come from being lazy, it comes from lack of educaton and skills, and the lack of jobs in an area where no jobs can be found. Get off your high horse and open your eyes!
Great post, and perfectly put but try to get through to some...
Greed and selfishness are destroying our world and some people would rather sit and watch whilst "Rome burns" .
The thing about poverty is in the end, it will bite you back on the nose at some point, and we all suffer from that rich or poor. It affects us all in so many ways.
Poverty means more violent crime, more drugs, less educated people making the "right" decisions and a whole lot of desperate people.
We keep pushing and pushing and one day they will push back.
Desperate people have very little to lose and at one point all the gated communities in the world and all the electric fences to keep you from "undesirables" will not work any more. To shut yourself up in some ivory tower about the problems of the world is as callous as it is dangerous and eventually completely futile.
All I hope is that some posters will one day wake up to the real world around them and stop putting the blame on poverty and destitution on the poor and the destitute. Maybe one day their own world will collapse and they will be left with nothing . One can but hope and dream !
Yes, Mooseketeer, greed and selfishness is the root of all evil in this country. Other countries pride themselves on family and morals, when we value the dollar. People would sell their soul for money and that is a very big reason we have poverty in this country. Its always "I did it, so can you", when people do not look at the situational challenges of a person's life. When you are stuck in traffic on the highway, do you ever look over at the car next to you and think, hey maybe they might be going through something today?
No, we as a society think only for ourselves and I wish I was alive during the years that MLK and John F. Kennedy reigned because those people and the individuals that stood around them gave unselfishly and we have lost the "One Nation Under God" in this new century. We are divided and it is because of our indiviualism. Do people see that America is going to go down because we elect politicians who are selfish and want money for themselves and lay in bed with the corrupt companies that govern our society and how we conduct ourselves? America needs to learn what humility is.
Like I have said before, those that are unfortunate can teach some of us humility.Some one stated that Paris Hilton's parents spoil her. That is the problem. She has everything! And it amazes me how her parents do not feel embarassed enough by her to put her in her place, because I know that my mother and my father would kill me for commiting any crime and publicly shaming them like that. I would not want my child to look up to her at all!
The role models are not the rich. The people who work hard and abide by the laws are the role model nowadays!
Last edited by LoveMiiorHateMii; 08-14-2007 at 08:42 AM..
Look at slavery. Europeans could not have made this country without slaves. They worked and worked and worked and sacrificed so you and I, no matter what race could have what we have today.America would be nothing without slaves. Were did you think all the money in this country came from? Out of thin air? No. It came from the slaves picking cotton, tobacco, rice, wheat and sugar. Did the Europeans ever get out there to help? No. Yet they still treated them like animals, when they did all the hard work!
I agree with most of the premise of what you wrote in your original post except for the above. You make it seem as though slavery was the only or the inevitable economic model of development of the country. It's not, and it wasn't.
Had the United States developed in a different time, with no slavery, there simply would have been a continuation of indentured servitude (the "slavery-lite" that many whites had to work under) model, and/or the otherwise importation of non-slave dirt cheap labor to work farms. The only people that would have suffered would be large plantation holders. After all, even slaves had an upkeep cost that probably wasn't much less than what someone could get away paying a wage to a "free man" for.
After all, the US developed mostly AFTER slavery as well as during, built on the backs of poor laborers of all colors, as usual throughout the history of mankind.
Poor people today have cable, Tvs, cars, barbeques, and a place to live. The poor in another country will look at the poor people in the US and say damn your a rich bastard!!
I agree with most of the premise of what you wrote in your original post except for the above. You make it seem as though slavery was the only or the inevitable economic model of development of the country. It's not, and it wasn't.
Had the United States developed in a different time, with no slavery, there simply would have been a continuation of indentured servitude (the "slavery-lite" that many whites had to work under) model, and/or the otherwise importation of non-slave dirt cheap labor to work farms. The only people that would have suffered would be large plantation holders. After all, even slaves had an upkeep cost that probably wasn't much less than what someone could get away paying a wage to a "free man" for.
After all, the US developed AFTER slavery, built on the backs of poor laborers, as usual throughout the history of mankind.
Yes, I agree with the comment that indentured servitude would have dominated the country, yet they had a chance to pay back their debts and were not treated as animals.Some slaves had no chance. It is as the same thing now. The plantation holders were the rich, the indentured servants were the middle, and the slaves were the on the bottom.(Disclaimer: It is not about race, just making an example)
What I was trying to get across is that the people at the bottom will always hold those at the top up, and the opportunity for everyone cannot happen when those at the top are still trying to climb higher and higher, for themselves, and forgetting that there are people at the bottom helping them reach their goal. People put it in their mind that the poor are lazy, or they want to be that way, and forget that the government has given some of them a reason to stay that way. Others do not look for hand outs and go to work.
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I will no longer use the word poor.
