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I'm a political moderate who leans to the right on some issues and to the left on others. As a long time atheist you must be familiar with the tendency of right-wingers to lump you in the liberal category. The poster in question is in the habit of labeling anyone who disagrees with him as a leftist. I was merely correcting his misperception.
Yes, I am lumped in as a liberal among conservatives because I lack any religious beliefs, and as a religious right-wing wacko by liberals because I am a conservative. Both are obviously wrong. Nobody that has read any of my posts on CD can possibly confuse me as being a liberal, but those who have not read my posts frequently do associate me with liberals because I am an atheist.
When it comes to religion, it gets much more difficult to stereotype someone. Liberals and conservatives are both religious, and both are also atheists, and everything in between. It is not like stereotyping someone's political ideology, which is where the labels of "conservative" and "liberal" are applicable.
Although I am not a Christian myself, I do have a lot of Christian friends and neighbors. None of them ever complained about being "oppressed" or "persecuted." In fact, time and again they have apologized to me - as a non-Christian - for the antics of their wacky and/or over-zealous coreligionists who have attempted to impose their religious beliefs on others.
We need to be more tolerant of one another.
Personally I do not care for evangelical Christians proselytizing and trying to convert everyone to their religion, but I understand that they have rights under the Constitution. They also have the right to try to push their agenda in government. If those of us are against it, we are just asserting our Constitutional rights ... does NOT mean we are try to oppress Christians.
I agree with those who have mentioned that Christianity is losing it's dominance in American society, and some Christians find that very alarming!
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber
Lead solder? Man...that went out before the hippys graduated high school. This thread has moved well beyond what your claiming we should be talking about. You are just trying to deflect and narrow the focus onto one person and claim some graniose victory in the discussion. Perhaps you should cut down on the copy toner. Pretty blase' and simplistic tactic. Never heard of Phelps. Guess I should get out more...whatever. Now cut and paste that last quip and claim you have proved my ignorance and lack of intellect. Twisting words and finding ways to insult folks is what most libbys do when they can't justify their attitudes. My personal beliefs are what I am defending...and yes..are what I consider my determining factor in defining my Faith. You saying I need to accept YOUR definition? Typical libby.........
Oh BULL! This thread is based on some imagined persecution of Christians. I don't give a rat's ass about your personal beliefs, but I have zero respect for the "My God is better than your God" argument you apparently put forth with your own put downs of Catholics and Mormons.
So if I disagree with you or make any statements critical of Christianity I'm a "leftist." Is that all there is in your mind? Only Christians who think exactly as you do and liberals? There are no gradations in between? It must be nice to have everything figured out so perfectly -you almost don't have to think at all.
FYI the Deist conception of god is very different from the Christian version which is why George Washington spoke of the "Great Author," "Almighty Being," and "Invisible Hand" in his first Inaugural Address to avoid the Christian connotations of the word "God." The Deists believed in an unknowable god who set the universe in motion with a set of immutable natural laws and didn't intervene in human affairs. This idea is also known as the Clockwork Universe Theory, in which a god designs and builds the universe, but steps aside to let it run on its own. Deists reject supernatural events such as prophecy and miracles and believe in the existence of a god without any reliance on revealed religion, religious authority or holy books and believed that reason and its servant science are the best ways to govern mankind -a far cry from the angry, vengeful god of the Ten Commandments.
And for the record I'm an Army veteran and political moderate who has voted both democrat and republican in the past. The real world that exists outside of your head is a lot more complicated.
And you are being so snarky because?????
I don't care what kind of God they believed in, a small letter god or a capital letter God, it's was still a God. The founders wanted ALL people of any and all religious or non-religious backgrounds to be included here, not just non-religious people.
Washington and most of the founders went to a church so not sure why they would be so hypocritical if they didn't want to go. I think they were comfortable in church and wanted to be included in the worship.
After reading the responses from angry Christians, my misinterpreted and misunderstood beliefs remain unchanged. My heart is pounding after reading the hatred in between their words. At no point in my post did I say anything negative about any Christian, I just criticized the religion as being a contradictory messed up way of thinking that the real world does not support. Shouldn't people live their lives based on the facts and their own experiences instead of having faith in things that cannot be proven or were written by others with malicious intentions? I get attacked by people (almost all on my ignore list, I have to mind my health and blood pressure) who are apparently incapable of thinking in anything other than black and white as another poster (Zekester I think, yeah!) pointed out.
Based solely on the behavior of the Christians on this thread, Christianity should be ridiculed. Why? Its followers claim they're doing good and holy things while their opinions contradict that claim: "We're not all like Fred Phelps but since you can't see that, you are a pathetic wackaloon who deserves to be shot" or things to that effect. If the Fred Phelps's of the world don't represent you as a group, why don't you shout louder to drown him out? Why is it that the message coming from the Christian community is so un-Christian? Surely it can't just be bad media coverage.
However, it makes sense that people who hold onto beliefs that have expired lash out at others for heaping criticism their way. It's scary when your belief system no longer provides the foundation for your life. Something's gotta give and hopefully reason will prevail.
I am Christian and I agree with you but if you notice it's not just threads on Christians that bring out the wackos. Look at all the threads---when people disagree they don't just say ok but I don't agree, they come back with you disagree with me? You must be crazy and more hate. It's sickening but it's all over a debate forum.
People----the best way to lose a debate is to start throwing around the hateful names, etc.
I disagree with you about the beliefs having expired but I won't call you a hateful name for thinking that way.
I don't care what kind of God they believed in, a small letter god or a capital letter God, it's was still a God. The founders wanted ALL people of any and all religious or non-religious backgrounds to be included here, not just non-religious people.
Washington and most of the founders went to a church so not sure why they would be so hypocritical if they didn't want to go. I think they were comfortable in church and wanted to be included in the worship.
The founding fathers took great pains to establish a secular nation. Why did they go to all the trouble? Its simple. Being avid and wise students of history they were well aware of the excesses and dangers that unchecked religious fervor posed to liberty and were bound and determined to keep the new nation that they had founded with their own wit, sweat, and blood from devolving into yet another theocratic hellhole which is exactly where the fundamentalist nutters out there would take us if they had their way. The constitution both protected religion and protected people from religion. I cannot thank the founding fathers enough for their foresight.
I don't agree. I don't think they even thought of secularism. In their time the people coming here brought some kind of religion with them, heck they even left their homes because of religious repression. They came here for religious freedom.
I think the founders would be shocked if they came back today and saw the attack some people do on various religions in the public square. I don't think they would agree with any of it since they were setting up a Democratic nation and a country that embraced everyone.
I don't agree. I don't think they even thought of secularism. In their time the people coming here brought some kind of religion with them, heck they even left their homes because of religious repression. They came here for religious freedom.
I think the founders would be shocked if they came back today and saw the attack some people do on various religions in the public square. I don't think they would agree with any of it since they were setting up a Democratic nation and a country that embraced everyone.
Your are correct in the sense that it was not the intention of the founding fathers to set up an atheistic nation, but they purposely worded the constitution in such a way as to ban religious considerations from the machinations of government which essentially made the government that they created secular in nature.
The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." They clearly wanted religion to be separate from the legislature and Thomas Jefferson himself intimated this idea in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802 which is where we get the term "separation of church and state."
The original text reads: "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
The founders wanted people to be able to practice their religion in peace, but they wanted dissenters or unbelievers to be free from religious reprisal as well. I don't think the founders would be upset at all about the way their words have been interpreted. In fact, the system that they've bequeathed to us is still working as they intended.
Last edited by Zekester; 07-22-2011 at 10:42 PM..
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