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He deserves the right to be able to move past his mistake, learn from it, and not commit anymore crimes.
If you say the world would be better off if this teenager starved to death, that is saying you believe they should. Or, you don't think the world should be a better place.
While yes you are entitled to your opinion, but the fact of the matter remains, there are many that make a mistake when they are younger, that in turn change their lives and do not resort back to their old ways.
Many of these same people also are now employed in very well to do jobs.
Again, like i said before, 100's of people receive pardons and file and get their records sealed, and at that point, are no longer considered a felon and it does not show up on the criminal background check. Does that mean that they now magically didnt commit the crime? No! they still are the same person that committed the crime, they just no longer have the record that shows it.
The person working beside you could be one of these people, and you would have no idea.
I am against this mandating of businesses to hire felons as much as the next person, but, don't feel it should come out of hatred. I guess the hatred towards people reminds me too much of the hatred towards blacks from the Dems.
The world would be a better place if criminals were dead and gone how can any argue that point?
What I am saying is if they starved i wouldnt care. We have homeless vets who are sick and need help. Them I care about.
Ill put this way we have a corrupt county near me. Luzerne county. Judges caught selling beds at juvi centers etc. I would want those judges executed for their crimes. The same with corrupt cops and politicians.
As for the wayward boy in your hypothetical. He has demonstrated that he does not learn from his mistakes.
I had a kid on my team. Nice kid over all and a good worker. Got nailed for a dui. Only 3 times the legal limit at 9 am. His second hit. Well he called and asked for vacation time. Couldnt do it because I had someone off already and we are allowed 1 off per shift by guidelines. Yes I could have gone outside guidelines. I have in the past for family emergencies, functions or if the person in question really felt they needed it. In this case. Self inflicted stupidity. He came in the next day and now because of prior call offs his reliability is unacceptable. He is placed in behavior modification system. Too bad to sad. Dont drink and drive dumb azz.
He then gets some jail time further adding to his reliabilty issues.
Comes to work with attitude. Company sucks blah blah blah. Yes because we should all care about his drinking problems. We all want to deal with a drunk. Long story short he got house arrest with right to work. Got nailed driving to work on suspended license. Do I feel bad that I didnt waste compassion on him? NO. His personal life resulted in the team suffering working short. His mistakes resulted in 2 years of wasted effort training him. He threw away a life time job with great benefits and retirement. Top paying company in the area. This is the reality of dealing with people who dont learn.
The world would be a better place if criminals were dead and gone how can any argue that point?
What I am saying is if they starved i wouldnt care. We have homeless vets who are sick and need help. Them I care about.
Ill put this way we have a corrupt county near me. Luzerne county. Judges caught selling beds at juvi centers etc. I would want those judges executed for their crimes. The same with corrupt cops and politicians.
As for the wayward boy in your hypothetical. He has demonstrated that he does not learn from his mistakes.
I had a kid on my team. Nice kid over all and a good worker. Got nailed for a dui. Only 3 times the legal limit at 9 am. His second hit. Well he called and asked for vacation time. Couldnt do it because I had someone off already and we are allowed 1 off per shift by guidelines. Yes I could have gone outside guidelines. I have in the past for family emergencies, functions or if the person in question really felt they needed it. In this case. Self inflicted stupidity. He came in the next day and now because of prior call offs his reliability is unacceptable. He is placed in behavior modification system. Too bad to sad. Dont drink and drive dumb azz.
He then gets some jail time further adding to his reliabilty issues.
Comes to work with attitude. Company sucks blah blah blah. Yes because we should all care about his drinking problems. We all want to deal with a drunk. Long story short he got house arrest with right to work. Got nailed driving to work on suspended license. Do I feel bad that I didnt waste compassion on him? NO. His personal life resulted in the team suffering working short. His mistakes resulted in 2 years of wasted effort training him. He threw away a life time job with great benefits and retirement. Top paying company in the area. This is the reality of dealing with people who dont learn.
But what about the reality of those that do learn, and end up becoming productive members of society, and even your employers?
I mean, the kid was no saint, but he again he did things when he was young, and was making an effort to reform, and as an adult started to become a productive member of society. I mean at 22 he owned his own mortgage company. Damn right he needed a better attorney.
Sadly, the justice system is not about proving innocence. It is about discrediting the charges. If your attorney can't discredit the charges, then you are pretty much screwed.
If you think that a compelling case, and it might just be, would you not have the confidence to leave it up to whoever is doing the hiring?
On one hand, if this fella made his case to me and I thought him a great candidate, that incident not with standing, I might just ignore it.
OTOH is that case not a perfect indicator, a warning, that this guy has a short fuse and not someone you want in a tense work environment?
There have been times when I have walked from a fight while my opponent derided me as a coward. I did not walk because I would lose, but because I did an immediate caculation of the outcome in my head. I took the slight humiliation rather than the huge humiliation of becoming caught in the criminal justice system.
Moth you seem like a reasonable individual. It sounds like you take things case by case, and don't always deal in absolutes! Now that's what I'm talking about! It is absolutely ludicrous that we need to mandate such a law, but that is how it is these days!
Also, I've walked away from many fights as well. I would much rather do so, because people are just flat out crazy in this day and age! On the other hand, if you put your hands on me, or spit on me, then I will defend myself. Which I have done that as well.
Moth you seem like a reasonable individual. It sounds like you take things case by case, and don't always deal in absolutes! Now that's what I'm talking about! It is absolutely ludicrous that we need to mandate such a law, but that is how it is these days!
Also, I've walked away from many fights as well. I would much rather do so, because people are just flat out crazy in this day and age! On the other hand, if you put your hands on me, or spit on me, then I will defend myself. Which I have done that as well.
The problem is defending yourself is often seen as a crime. Victims have few rights these days.
How many crimes are described as, "Robberies gone wrong" as if there was a proper way to rob someone. How many victims are "in the wrong place at the wrong time" as if it was they who committed a crime.
That is part of why I oppose this. Its another nail in the coffin of common sense. Its also another version of blame the victim and perverse roll reversal where convicts are presented as hapless dupes. It presents being a perpetrator as nearing a state of benign. The outcome is we destroy personal responsibility and thus encourage more crime.
Your points are good, but not quite enough to sway me. Thanks for the props.
The problem is defending yourself is often seen as a crime. Victims have few rights these days.
How many crimes are described as, "Robberies gone wrong" as if there was a proper way to rob someone. How many victims are "in the wrong place at the wrong time" as if it was they who committed a crime.
That is part of why I oppose this. Its another nail in the coffin of common sense. Its also another version of blame the victim and perverse roll reversal where convicts are presented as hapless dupes. It presents being a perpetrator as nearing a state of benign. The outcome is we destroy personal responsibility and thus encourage more crime.
Your points are good, but not quite enough to sway me. Thanks for the props.
You're right. All of a sudden the perpetrator becomes "the victim" of society.
The problem is defending yourself is often seen as a crime. Victims have few rights these days.
How many crimes are described as, "Robberies gone wrong" as if there was a proper way to rob someone. How many victims are "in the wrong place at the wrong time" as if it was they who committed a crime.
That is part of why I oppose this. Its another nail in the coffin of common sense. Its also another version of blame the victim and perverse roll reversal where convicts are presented as hapless dupes. It presents being a perpetrator as nearing a state of benign. The outcome is we destroy personal responsibility and thus encourage more crime.
Your points are good, but not quite enough to sway me. Thanks for the props.
[SIZE=3]Being that I lean libertarian, I feel there should be more victim’s rights, and harsher sentences on violent crimes. I also oppose more nanny state type laws to protect ourselves from each other! One solution to cut down on the non-violent felonies is to end the war on drugs. Someone doing or possessing drugs is more or less a victimless crime. Now, if that person robs a convenience store to get their fix for example, well then, that I have a problem with. With that said, prohibition often breeds black market and criminal behavior. Ask Al Capone. If anything the prohibition of pot should at least be repealed. Right there you cut down on non-violent offenders. I also feel as a libertarian that force should ONLY be used as a last resort and for defense ONLY! I believe in that as a foreign policy as well as with an individual protecting themselves or family! With that being said I’ve also walked away from many fights. Some I haven’t been so lucky! Basically, you can call me names, all you want, but if you physically assault me in any way, such as with a fist, pushing, or even spitting on me I can and will defend myself. I’m in my late 30s, work, and have a family, so I don’t have to worry about that as much anymore, as I did when I was say 19, 20, or 21 because I’m older, wiser, and folks nowadays are just downright crazy! With that said, I do agree it’s the businesses right to decide, but I also am willing to overlook certain offenses. Like you said in a previous post or something along the lines of, time is a factor, and what have they done since their last offense to improve their lives? Those people are the ones I would throw a bone! Especially if they’re qualified for the job. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Being that I lean libertarian, I feel there should be more victim’s rights, and harsher sentences on violent crimes. I also oppose more nanny state type laws to protect ourselves from each other! One solution to cut down on the non-violent felonies is to end the war on drugs. Someone doing or possessing drugs is more or less a victimless crime. Now, if that person robs a convenience store to get their fix for example, well then, that I have a problem with. With that said, prohibition often breeds black market and criminal behavior. Ask Al Capone. If anything the prohibition of pot should at least be repealed. Right there you cut down on non-violent offenders. I also feel as a libertarian that force should ONLY be used as a last resort and for defense ONLY! I believe in that as a foreign policy as well as with an individual protecting themselves or family! With that being said I’ve also walked away from many fights. Some I haven’t been so lucky! Basically, you can call me names, all you want, but if you physically assault me in any way, such as with a fist, pushing, or even spitting on me I can and will defend myself. I’m in my late 30s, work, and have a family, so I don’t have to worry about that as much anymore, as I did when I was say 19, 20, or 21 because I’m older, wiser, and folks nowadays are just downright crazy! With that said, I do agree it’s the businesses right to decide, but I also am willing to overlook certain offenses. Like you said in a previous post or something along the lines of, time is a factor, and what have they done since their last offense to improve their lives? Those people are the ones I would throw a bone! Especially if they’re qualified for the job. [/SIZE]
I agree with you regarding the War on Drugs. Still, we must deal with present realities rather than wishful thinking. That means commenting on law as it is, not as we would wish it.
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,877,655 times
Reputation: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01
Evidenced by the vast majority of citizens who have no problem not committing crimes and who have never been arrested.
Its society who is to blame for criminal behaviors. Our Judges don't have any compassion and no one is willing to understand its not the drug dealers fault. No one offered him a high paying job so he was forced to deal meth. I got it.
No, you haven't "got it".
You quote an argument that was popular 20 years ago
"the only option for minority people living in depressed areas to break the cycle of poverty is to engage in illegal activities".
Again, no, you haven't "got it".
That is not my argument.
I believe the government is passing laws which criminalizes non-criminal behavior thus criminalizes our citizens. The police are empowered to use unconstitutional military tactics which the 'War on Drugs' facilitated against our citizens thus dangerously escalating these situations.
Listen, or in this case actually think about what you read rather than assume what someone means based upon the position they take.
As I said, you illlustrate how difficult it is for people who have not experienced or witnessed this injustice and oppression first hand, to come to grips with the facist state our government is morphing in to.
Another dangerous, illegal and unconstitutional 'power' invested in domestic law enforcement is the confiscation of private property, including 'cash' by alleging, not proving it is connected with criminal activity. This gives police a financial incentive to wrongfully accuse you of a crime or to pursue criminal assumption if they realize they are wrong in their initial assumption.
The confiscation upon allegation is fact not my opinion, and I make a note of differentiting between my opinions and fact.
Think about it, this James Stewart is now sitting in jail with 123K bond facing the possibility of being labelled a criminal for the rest of his life for running what? Guns? Drugs? Numbers? A Prostitution Ring?
NO, for running an organic and raw foods co-op.
Last edited by jwm1964; 08-03-2011 at 04:31 PM..
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It is absolutely ludicrous that we need to mandate such a law, but that is how it is these days!
