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I think our language does not adequately convey all the nuances of the word "submission". None of us can possibly know what goes on between two people in the privacy of their own home so any conjecture that Michelle Bachman has NO VOICE in anything that occurs in this marriage is disingenuous. From what I can see, as an outsider, in the Bachman marriage there does seem to be a very high degree of respect for each other. She may consider him to be the "head of the family" but that does not necessarily mean she is a doormat or that he is an overbearing pig. It may mean no more than when he feels strongly about something, she has enough respect for him to acquiesce to his wishes and support him in his decision. By the same token, he may also acquiesce to her wishes when she feels strongly about something and give her an equal amount of support. Judging from her composure and success in the business world, I think it likely that this marriage is a two way street in actual practice.
I don't care who changes the oil or does the dishes in her house. It's irrelevant to the rigors of office. I won't bother to ask or judge based on that. I also don't bother spending a minute of time listening to someone who would ask fluffer nutter questions. This is clearly not the case when her decision making capacity is subverted to a 3rd party narrative character. What's up with blaming your imaginary friend for why you didn't do your homework?
Who is responsible the responsible party should not be in question when it comes time to pay the piper. These intellectualized abstractions upon abstractions we call a corporate entity, and a representative, have been used to perpetrate BS & personal agendas in the name of legitimate functions of servitude. Privatize the credit and socialize the blame isn't working in the interest of the greater good no matter who is doing it. It's an open door for legalized corruption and it needs to be put out of it's misery once and for good.
Reminds me of Ann Coulter BS. She wants to parade around claiming herself feminist but is no such animal. She wants to parade around implying she's religious Catholic, but she is no such animal. She wants the accolades and prestige of journalist standards, but has earned none. The 'champion of truth' lies about her age, or lied about her first vote, or implicated herself committing a felony voting underage, and when cornered in that lie defaults to...
Quote:
"I'm a girl, I can't help it".
Interesting double standard she plays claiming men are victims of feminists who pay their own rent in life. Men are reliably victimized by the aww shucks pointing at their dimple routine than women who don't spend their lives preying on men to carry their luggage for them.
How about if some MALE politician said he submitted to his wife....wonder how well THAT would go over???
Indeed! Colin Powell did not 'submit' himself to his wife when it was her decision that he not run for president. He deferred to the best interests of his family. She made sacrifices all along the way in marriage to support his military career, and she wasn't willing to make more sacrifices for other ambitions putting himself, and his entire family, in the cross hairs. I don't blame her, and thumbs up to him for keeping his marriage a higher priority than ambition. It only made me respect him more as a man, and as a truer expression of conservative principles/ family values. Walking your talk is a good thing.
I promised myself that I would "unplug" so as not to get caught up in futile P&OC threads, but because I am a Lutheran (albeit ELCA), here I might have something of value to contribute.
The Bachmanns were long-time members (10+ years) of the Salem Lutheran Church, which belongs to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, a theologically conservative group of ~1300 congregations founded in mid-19th century Milwaukee. WELS congregations subscribe to the belief that women must avoid "exercising authority over men" and therefore do not allow female pastors. Additionally, female church members are normally not voting members of their congregations (an exception to this rule is described below). As for the public realm, it gets a little sticky, so I'll now defer to John Brug, a professor at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, to explain . . .
I suspect that Mrs. Bachmann's political aspirations might have been a significant factor in the couple's diminishing involvement in the church over the past few years; however, because the media is not well-steeped in conservative Lutheran theology, it is generally being played solely as a conflict between WELS anti-Catholicism and Bachmann's need for Catholic support in the GOP primary. The Bachmanns now belong to Eagle Brook Church, formerly First Baptist Church, which purports to be non-denominational but is listed with the Baptist General Conference.
Interesting post. I, too, am an ELCA Lutheran, though some members of my family are WELS. I agree with the above assessment. I came to this thread after perusing the WELS website, and I found this:
Already in the perfection of the Garden of Eden he assigned unique callings or roles to the man and the woman when God made her to be helper suitable for the man and created her right from the man (Genesis 2:18ff). God gave to the man the unique calling of being a loving head and to his wife the unique calling of being a loving helper to him. . . . .
That is why one part of the unique calling of helper is to respect and yield (submit) to that leadership (Ephesians 5:22).
My allotted three sentences. There is much more.
I recently read an article (which of course I'll never be able to find again on the web) that discussed Ms. Bachmann's reasons for leaving the WELS. The issue of women not having authority over men was one of these reasons.
IIRC, women are not even allowed to be principals at WELS high schools for this reason. Lutheran kids get confirmed at the end of 8th grade; therefore, a high school freshman boy is higher in the hierarchy than a grown woman with a college degree.
It is neither love nor respect if one particular sex has to submit to the other.
It is a sick power trip and a control game for weak men.....just another way to try and control women .
Bachmann did NOT say it was a two-way street...it's his way only.
No, the man is told to love his wife as Jesus loves us and died for us.
The man if he is the spiritual leader and should with consulting his wife with love will make the final decision and it may well be what the wife wants.
Too bad the congress can't get things done because of looking out for their own interests.
The principle is not "don't vote." The principle is "don't exercise authority over men." There might be out-of-the ordinary occasions, even in the church, where honoring the principle might allow or even require women to vote. In one such case, in a church that allowed women to vote, several women who normally didn't exercise that privilege voted when it came time to uphold the biblical principle and change the constitution to disallow their voting. They correctly understood the principle and acted in a way that would uphold it.
I suspect that the dissonance between the tenet "no authority over men" and Mrs. Bachmann's political aspirations might have played a significant factor in the couple's diminishing involvement in the church over the past few years; however, because the media first look for the crazy and are not well-versed in conservative Lutheran theology, the situation is generally being played solely as a conflict between WELS anti-Catholicism and Bachmann's need for Catholic support in the GOP primary.
The Bachmanns now belong to Eagle Brook Church, formerly First Baptist Church, which purports to be non-denominational but is listed with the Baptist General Conference.
By their own philosophy, along with Sally Kern and Sarah Palin, none of the above are competent for any office whatsoever. They're using politics to further point issue agendas at the expense of the job itself.
The only thing they'd be qualified for by the standard they claim to believe is the head matron of an all girls kindergarten class for social conservative wannabee's. All other public offices require serving all genders, colors, creeds, and ages equally. Every judge, every department head, every ounce of legislation constructed. Congressional offices have the responsibility declaring war- how is that not a conflict? The office of president= Commander in chief. An inherent conflict. These women are being used for power grabbing theocratic BS that has no legitimate place in authority. They want to have their cake and eat it too. Unsatisfied in their own homes, they're using political offices as a platform to legislate juvenile delinquent status of women erasing the criteria of meritocracy.
If anything, the vote we need to be putting forth in legislative format is parsing out the lifelong committed juveniles from adults. Any human being abandoning their free will and their brain to a 3rd party secular entity is no longer a competent adult. They're chattel and should be handled by the law as such. Poop or get off the pot, ladies. You can't have it both ways when it suits you.
I promised myself that I would "unplug" so as not to get caught up in futile P&OC threads, but because I am a Lutheran (albeit ELCA), here I might have something of value to contribute.
The Bachmanns were long-time members (10+ years) of the Salem Lutheran Church, which belongs to the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, a theologically conservative group of ~1300 congregations founded in mid-19th century Milwaukee. WELS congregations subscribe to the belief that women must avoid "exercising authority over men" and therefore do not allow female pastors. Additionally, female church members are normally not voting members of their congregations (an exception to this rule is described below). As for the public realm, it gets a little sticky, so I'll now defer to John Brug, a professor at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, to explain . . .
I suspect that Mrs. Bachmann's political aspirations might have played a significant role in the couple's diminishing involvement in the church over the past few years; however, because the media first look for the crazy and are not well-versed in conservative Lutheran theology, the situation is generally being played solely as a conflict between WELS anti-Catholicism and Bachmann's need for Catholic support in the GOP primary.
The Bachmanns are now reported to attend Eagle Brook Church, formerly First Baptist Church, which purports to be non-denominational but is listed with the Baptist General Conference.
Wow! I know there is a WELS church near where I live, and I though it was just a "normal" Lutheran church. I knew the Wisconsin synod was conservative, but I had no idea it was that extreme. Not allowing women to vote?!?! That reminds me of the Taliban.
Eagle Brook Church is a large, modernistic church with several locations in the suburbs of Minneapolis-St. Paul. I visited there once, and it didn't appear to be anything unusual. It's a member of Converge Worldwide Churches, formerly the Baptist General Conference. Despite the (former) name, that denomination is moderate to progressive theologically, and certainly doesn't teach anything like the WELS does on the role of women. The church I used to attend back in my hometown is a BGC/Converge church, and women certainly have a voice there. Most people who attend my old church are politically liberal, but that may have more to do with the location (a left-leaning college town in Michigan) than the theology.
Last edited by northstar22; 08-12-2011 at 08:27 PM..
Reason: edited out "nondenominational," because Eagle Brook has a denomination. Also, edited out "cult" reference.
Wow! That church sounds like a cult! I know there is a WELS church near where I live, and I though it was just a "normal" Lutheran church. I knew the Wisconsin synod was conservative, but I had no idea it was that extreme. Not allowing women to vote?!?! That reminds me of the Taliban.
No, WELS is not a cult. It's just a very conservative Lutheran synod. Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LC-MS) holds to the same tenets, as do some Presbyterians and many Southern Baptists, among others. Recall that Catholics don't allow female leadership either.
I'm not a fan of Michele Bachmann's, but it has nothing to do with the church membership controversy. Many people hide views that conflict with church tenets to preserve ties to a community they love, but as a confessional Lutheran, Mrs. Bachmann might have been turned away from the table* as her political career developed, which would have been terribly awkward. It's really no surprise that the couple sought a new church that was friendlier to her aspirations.
In the past, confessional Lutherans have regularly used the term "closed communion" to express the scriptural truth that we should welcome to the Lord's Supper only those Christians who are properly instructed, who recognize the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Sacrament, who are repentant, and who are united with us in doctrine.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 08-12-2011 at 09:03 PM..
IIRC, women are not even allowed to be principals at WELS high schools for this reason. Lutheran kids get confirmed at the end of 8th grade; therefore, a high school freshman boy is higher in the hierarchy than a grown woman with a college degree.
I can just picture my great great grandmother listening to her 8th grade son declare scripture said he didn't have to obey. His mattress would be hurled in the barn, meals in a trough, banned from the house until he learned the concept of respect eluding him.
You don't mess with Irish women. That's why God made cast iron skillets. hahahahaa
Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "cult," but their beliefs do sound really extreme. It's not even the "no female pastors" thing that bothers me -- a lot of conservative churches teach that -- it's their prohibiting women from having authority in any area of life (work, marriage, voting, etc.) that I find offensive. I know the Catholics or Southern Baptists' teachings on women not leading is limited to the church.
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