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Old 08-19-2011, 12:04 AM
 
29,409 posts, read 21,967,571 times
Reputation: 5455

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Hmm as a matter of fact I havn't seen hardly any sprinklers going gangbusters this summer. Most folks have just let their grass dry up.

I think I get it now. Your one of those big oil corporate despisers. Go find us some alternatives that folks can afford. Until then we'll be using what got us to where we are now which is oil, gas and coal. If you hate oil companies so much why do you continue to use their products? I say go completely green. Show those evil oil companies. Buy a bunch of rabbits and fence em in to mow yoru lawn. Oops the fencing is probably trucked to the store by trucks using that evil oil again.
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Old 08-19-2011, 01:19 AM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
29,198 posts, read 22,263,933 times
Reputation: 23827
There is a big difference between a wild flower and a weed.
Just ask anyone who has lost everything from a range fire in the West. Cheatgrass, a weed, has killed off the native grasses that don't burn as fiercely or as hot as cheatgrass. Out here, we have been fighting cheatgrass for most of the 20th century, and it's still winning.
If we can't clean up a weed, how do you expect to clean up a more serious problem of our own making? Someone posted that we have been real good at cleaning up our past environmental mistakes. If you think that's true, ask anyone in Libby, Montana what they think. I could add a couple of hundred other places. But if it's not in your back yard, no problem.

And if you think Libby is bad, try living around a gas field that has been fracked before you get your fur all fluffed up.

As long as your kid doesn't have cancer due to some toxic crap used in fracking, or your back yard doesn't catch fire from all the natural gas in your water system, or your dog drops dead suddenly, or your town is enveloped in opaque down-to-the-ground smog, or you watch your entire area become a no-sell zone because no one else is will to move there, it's easy to whine and get all snarky about the wildflowers.

Endangered plants and animals are a cheap and effective way of slowing things down. A state can either take the oil companies to court or get an endangered flower listed. Either will change their ways.
Which is going to be cheaper? Do you want to pay taxes to support the first alternative? Or are you happier paying the bill the oil companies are going to tack on for legal defense?

Currently, the gas industry doesn't have to list what is in their fracking fluids, and does not reveal anything voluntarily. They aren't currently accountable for any permanent damage fracking could create as well. The industry has no answers to some of the very severe problems that come from sucking gas out of rock, but they're very willing to go full blast and damn the torpedoes. Let the grandkids come up with a way to clean up our mess.

One area of fracking that is well known is that water tables become severely polluted and/or altered. Once sweet high-flowing wells become dry or contaminated past potability. The other is fracking causes heavy smog. Jackson Hole Wyoming, which once had clear pure air, is now smoggy, and the smog is increasing month by month. If it keeps up, the Teton mountain range, one of the crown jewels of the United States, won't be visible from the scenic highway. The smog will eventually move into Yellowstone Park, which is the biggest jewel in the crown.

That's just for starters. Think about living in an earthquake zone that has been severely fractured deep underground, and think of the cities and humanity living above those fractures. No one can say yet if a small earthquake could create the same damage a major quake does now in those areas due to fracking.

I don't have anything against fracking. But I think the industry needs to proceed carefully and cautiously, and with full transparency. Natural gas is mostly methane, and methane deposits are everywhere in the country. Every big deposit can become another superfund site.

We get no free rides with any energy source, and every one of them can bite us all in the butt in a major way. For every current source of energy there is an alternative.

More alternatives are being developed every year. Some have fewer consequences than what we have now, but for sure, none are ever going to be perfect. Some of us are learning how to balance risk vs. potential, and others of us are still busy looking back over their shoulders at times that won't come back.

Last edited by banjomike; 08-19-2011 at 01:40 AM..
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Old 08-19-2011, 01:57 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 4,182,790 times
Reputation: 446
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
There is a big difference between a wild flower and a weed.
Just ask anyone who has lost everything from a range fire in the West. Cheatgrass, a weed, has killed off the native grasses that don't burn as fiercely or as hot as cheatgrass. Out here, we have been fighting cheatgrass for most of the 20th century, and it's still winning.
If we can't clean up a weed, how do you expect to clean up a more serious problem of our own making? Someone posted that we have been real good at cleaning up our past environmental mistakes. If you think that's true, ask anyone in Libby, Montana what they think. I could add a couple of hundred other places. But if it's not in your back yard, no problem.

And if you think Libby is bad, try living around a gas field that has been fracked before you get your fur all fluffed up.

As long as your kid doesn't have cancer due to some toxic crap used in fracking, or your back yard doesn't catch fire from all the natural gas in your water system, or your dog drops dead suddenly, or your town is enveloped in opaque down-to-the-ground smog, or you watch your entire area become a no-sell zone because no one else is will to move there, it's easy to whine and get all snarky about the wildflowers.

Endangered plants and animals are a cheap and effective way of slowing things down. A state can either take the oil companies to court or get an endangered flower listed. Either will change their ways.
Which is going to be cheaper? Do you want to pay taxes to support the first alternative? Or are you happier paying the bill the oil companies are going to tack on for legal defense?

Currently, the gas industry doesn't have to list what is in their fracking fluids, and does not reveal anything voluntarily. They aren't currently accountable for any permanent damage fracking could create as well. The industry has no answers to some of the very severe problems that come from sucking gas out of rock, but they're very willing to go full blast and damn the torpedoes. Let the grandkids come up with a way to clean up our mess.

One area of fracking that is well known is that water tables become severely polluted and/or altered. Once sweet high-flowing wells become dry or contaminated past potability. The other is fracking causes heavy smog. Jackson Hole Wyoming, which once had clear pure air, is now smoggy, and the smog is increasing month by month. If it keeps up, the Teton mountain range, one of the crown jewels of the United States, won't be visible from the scenic highway. The smog will eventually move into Yellowstone Park, which is the biggest jewel in the crown.

That's just for starters. Think about living in an earthquake zone that has been severely fractured deep underground, and think of the cities and humanity living above those fractures. No one can say yet if a small earthquake could create the same damage a major quake does now in those areas due to fracking.

I don't have anything against fracking. But I think the industry needs to proceed carefully and cautiously, and with full transparency. Natural gas is mostly methane, and methane deposits are everywhere in the country. Every big deposit can become another superfund site.

We get no free rides with any energy source, and every one of them can bite us all in the butt in a major way. For every current source of energy there is an alternative.

More alternatives are being developed every year. Some have fewer consequences than what we have now, but for sure, none are ever going to be perfect. Some of us are learning how to balance risk vs. potential, and others of us are still busy looking back over their shoulders at times that won't come back.


The whole situation over in Libby is sad. My mother-in-law's mom died of cancer there not too long ago. Lung cancer has killed 400 already because of the crap they dug out of the mountain, and this is a small town where everybody knows everybody else, pretty much; about 3000 people.
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Old 08-19-2011, 02:20 AM
 
Location: Currently I physically reside on the 3rd planet from the sun
2,220 posts, read 1,874,522 times
Reputation: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
Just add another pile of red tape to cut through. When will this stop? Never. I've seen many greenies love the idea of nat gas this and that but then turn around and try and slow down or stop the production. All insane.

“By 2020 we could produce as much oil and natural gas in the West as we currently import from Russia, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Algeria and Nigeria combined,” she said, but “we’re adding more regulation and slowing the development of American energy, preventing us from reaching our full potential and creating jobs and economic development across the West.”[LEFT]
Read more: New Flower Species Protections Pit Energy Industry Against Conservationists In Colorado | FoxNews.com
[/LEFT]
Our oil has already been promised to foreign interests, just as our gold is being stolen, I mean mined for foreign companies.

Don't you get it yet.
Our politicians have sold us out and our country does not belong to us any longer. It belongs to Big Oil, International Banking & Foreign Interests.
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Old 08-19-2011, 09:58 AM
 
527 posts, read 466,832 times
Reputation: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
Hmm as a matter of fact I havn't seen hardly any sprinklers going gangbusters this summer. Most folks have just let their grass dry up.

I think I get it now. Your one of those big oil corporate despisers. Go find us some alternatives that folks can afford. Until then we'll be using what got us to where we are now which is oil, gas and coal. If you hate oil companies so much why do you continue to use their products? I say go completely green. Show those evil oil companies. Buy a bunch of rabbits and fence em in to mow yoru lawn. Oops the fencing is probably trucked to the store by trucks using that evil oil again.
Yeah and i get it, you are one of those that cannot argue intelligently, and have to post cutesy retorts, or resort to silly calling for all or nothing solutions. I do hate the oil and gas industries, but mainly because they do not play fair-they get millions in subsidies from the govt. all the while pocketing billions in profits. They are crooks, who have the politicians in their back pockets. If this were a REAL free enterprise system they would not recieve a penny form the govt. and would have to pay for all of their equipment maintenance and research/development themselves.
It is stupid to just continue on this path, using fossil fuels up til they run out, and THEN and only then to find alternatives. Those like you who hide their heads in the sand are leaving the problem up to future generations to solve,who will look back at this period in history in disbelief that all of us were so blind to what we were doing.
You can post as many cutesy posts as you want, it will not change the fact that oil and gas are a dead end road,and that the politicians will continue to drive us down that road til we reach the end and find oursleves in a blind alley.
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:23 PM
 
Location: The Woods
18,337 posts, read 26,427,339 times
Reputation: 11335
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
Natural soap? I've never seen a soap plant. If there is natural soap how come the bears havn't built showers yet? Or do they just use waterfalls?
Actually there is a plant which can be used for soap, called soapwort.

But I was referring to soaps and shampoo made with natural ingredients: tallow or vegetable oils, and lye (which can be leached from wood ashes BTW)...
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:48 PM
 
16,545 posts, read 13,429,306 times
Reputation: 4241
Enviro wackos are just that. WACKOS! They would rather humans suffer than some weed. How thoughtful of you people. Like a weed or wild flower will go extinct. It can be TRANSPLANTED by seeding other areas much much easier than you can do with animals. Wild flowers and weeds are just that..WEEDS! They grow out of control anywhere they are planted.
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Old 08-19-2011, 12:56 PM
 
29,409 posts, read 21,967,571 times
Reputation: 5455
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
As long as your kid doesn't have cancer due to some toxic crap used in fracking, or your back yard doesn't catch fire from all the natural gas in your water system, or your dog drops dead suddenly, or your town is enveloped in opaque down-to-the-ground smog, or you watch your entire area become a no-sell zone because no one else is will to move there, it's easy to whine and get all snarky about the wildflowers..
I think I'll worry about all the radiation being spewed out from fukushima before your doom and gloom scenarios.

As for fracking take it up with your former hero of wind T Boone Pickens. He was all gung ho about it until he found out he couldn't get the taxpayers to pay for all his transmission lines. No he's moved on to trying to steal all the water from ogallala to fracking.
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Old 08-19-2011, 01:01 PM
 
29,409 posts, read 21,967,571 times
Reputation: 5455
Quote:
Originally Posted by specialrequest View Post
Yeah and i get it, you are one of those that cannot argue intelligently, and have to post cutesy retorts, or resort to silly calling for all or nothing solutions. I do hate the oil and gas industries, but mainly because they do not play fair-they get millions in subsidies from the govt. all the while pocketing billions in profits. They are crooks, who have the politicians in their back pockets. If this were a REAL free enterprise system they would not recieve a penny form the govt. and would have to pay for all of their equipment maintenance and research/development themselves.
It is stupid to just continue on this path, using fossil fuels up til they run out, and THEN and only then to find alternatives. Those like you who hide their heads in the sand are leaving the problem up to future generations to solve,who will look back at this period in history in disbelief that all of us were so blind to what we were doing.
You can post as many cutesy posts as you want, it will not change the fact that oil and gas are a dead end road,and that the politicians will continue to drive us down that road til we reach the end and find oursleves in a blind alley.
When will they run out? Tomorrow? Next week? Exxon just found another billion barrels + in the gulf. How is ethanol working out? Other than destroying engines and using our food for fuel not very well unless of course your Monsanto. Who said anything about using em up until they're gone and THEN find alternatives?? When an alternative is found that is sustainable then it will be pounced upon by everybody. Algae is very promising but until then its oil and coal. Don't like it don't use it is all I can say or move to some Island and live off the coconuts. Gilligan lasted a long time there.
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Old 08-19-2011, 01:02 PM
 
29,409 posts, read 21,967,571 times
Reputation: 5455
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctichomesteader View Post
Actually there is a plant which can be used for soap, called soapwort.

But I was referring to soaps and shampoo made with natural ingredients: tallow or vegetable oils, and lye (which can be leached from wood ashes BTW)...
Like I said I've never SEEN a soap plant.You go ahead and leach your lye and tallow or whatever. I'll stick with Irish Spring.
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