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View Poll Results: ?????
Yes, Economic Fullfillment is a Necessity of Rights 11 14.29%
No, Government Has no Rights to Protect Economic Interest of its People 66 85.71%
Voters: 77. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-22-2011, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Pleasant Ridge, Cincinnati, OH
1,040 posts, read 1,334,297 times
Reputation: 304

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
That is a completely unsupported claim. That's an opinion, but one not based on fact.
It's as much of a fact as any Keynesian claims of a government led recovery. The war years are remembered on the homefront as being times of rationing. Precious resources were spent making bombs and war machines, which could have been used making goods that people actually wanted. Rather, much of the productive energy of the country was devoted to simply destroying things in Europe and in the Pacific.

The idea that increasing demand for consumer goods has a direct correlation with full employment and prosperity was refuted by Leslie Stephen in the 1880s. Hayek (et al) later refuted Keynes General Theory as well. Economies are convoluted, and Keynes circular flow model is far too simplified to explain the complexities of the marketplace. The idea that sectors can be revived by a government injection of capital assumes that the government is able to even identify what is an economic downturn versus a natural reduction in demand. I think that if you look back at 2007, you'll find that Ben Bernanke cited signs of "tentative stabilization" in the housing market: If you remeber, the !@#$ hit the fan in September 2008.

Here is a paper that may interest you:
http://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_01_4_higgs.pdf

Also, you may be interested in Hayek's work:
Amazon.com: The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism (The Collected Works of F. A. Hayek) (9780226320663): F. A. Hayek, W. W. Bartley III: Books

Last edited by flash3780; 08-22-2011 at 03:20 PM..
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Old 08-22-2011, 03:49 PM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,692,666 times
Reputation: 1266
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
Not ignoring the data, but the damage had already been inflicted on the economy by the time Obama took over. It was left to him to do the job of cleaning it up. As I mentioned to one of the previous posters, there's a difference between cleaning up a recession and cleaning up a financial crisis that threatens the banks. The latter is one heck of a lot harder to get back on track. We still haven't yet, mainly because the banks are still weak.

It took FDR and the progressives about 8 years just to get unemployment back to single digits. We're actually at about 9 percent right now, but the numbers are deceiving. Not so much because people have given up on finding work, although that has happened; but the real reason it's deceiving is because there are safeguards that are in place now that are holding the economy together and giving us time to regroup. If we begin budget cutting, we're going to see unemployment skyrocket, and that will set off a potential cascade of economic problems.

The crisis is jobs. If the tea party and libertarians think they're ready to test their economic theories in 2013, well then, go ahead, but they're quickly going to have to confront a nation that will be mighty pissed at being used as political guinea pigs. I don't think they're quite ready for the reaction.
One big difference you've failed to mention is that FDR "inherited" a huge unemployment rate, which unfortunately took 8 long years of misery to reduce, while the unemployment rate under Obama has risen since he took office. I don't dispute that the damage from the previous Democrat Congress had only begun to take affect when Obama arrived, but measures he has attempted obviously did nothing to stem the tide. Since you're not a person to participate in "what if" or "what could", I'm sure you won't allow yourself to speculate otherwise. I'm not sure that, after 2.5 years of Keynesian policies, a nearly double-digit unemployment rate should be considered progress, with no indication of it getting any better. And, of course, we know the REAL unemployment rate is much higher.
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Old 08-22-2011, 04:04 PM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,950,358 times
Reputation: 2618
Everyone already has the right to be employed. Nobody is stopping them from seeking employment or employing themselves in some type of trade.

What I think you are referring to is "Do people have the right to demand others employee them?" and the answer to that is, no..., more specifically HELL NO!
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:36 PM
 
10 posts, read 7,576 times
Reputation: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey View Post
Many would say that the right to be employed is socialist, but if you think about it, rights for everyone is socialist. Economic rights should be part of a country's constitution.
There's a a couple things you don't get.

1.) You just can't centrally plan an economy. Had it worked, the Soviet Union would still be around. Cuba and N.Korea wouldn't be dirt poor.

2.) Inalienable rights don't cost a cent: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, including freedoms of religion, speech, a free press, free assembly, and free association, as well as the right to keep and bear arms are free and impose no financial burden on any other.

If your "right" imposes a burden on another, especially if the burden is applied inequitably - that is not a right but rather a benefit. Rights - as stated, are free. How much does my freedom of speech cost you?

3.) Economic rights. You have the right to self actualize and be employed in the United States - you just have to have the right skillset for the applied position.

4.) Best intentions, yes - but you cannot promise everyone a minimum wage of a $1,000,000 just like you cannot promise everyone a job. Won't work no matter the amount of good will involved.
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Old 08-22-2011, 05:59 PM
 
2,472 posts, read 3,197,786 times
Reputation: 2268
Maybe in a perfect world, but how would that even be possible?
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Old 08-22-2011, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
1,761 posts, read 1,713,860 times
Reputation: 2541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driller1 View Post
Codes are for safety.
Obviously I understand your point Driller1....but just to play devils advocate here, what if we were to impose our building codes (in the name of safety as you mentioned) in Mexico or some 3rd world country. The fact is virtually every home would have to be condemned and/or torn down leaving millions homeless.....so do you think in the name of "safety" it would be prudent to leave someone homeless ? In other words.....which is safer....to live in a substandard home, or have no home to live in at all ?

Again, I understand why building codes exist....I'm just trying to point out an interesting thought that crossed my mind.
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Inyokern, CA
1,609 posts, read 1,079,157 times
Reputation: 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
We are equating work with income. What would happen if everyone was provided with enough income that they did not have to work to survive? Not live well but just survive.
You might find the answer in the Middle Eastern countries that pay their citizens from oil revenue so they don't have to work!

What a mess that made.
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