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Old 10-13-2011, 01:24 PM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,893 posts, read 18,409,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
I wonder if GE will pay taxes again in 2013 after Obama is out?
Food for thought! however should we hold our breath on this.
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:24 AM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,920,524 times
Reputation: 17863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboblocke View Post
And if you can make electricity at 4c/kWh why are you paying 11.2c/kWh now? BTW what makes you think that coal prices will remain static?
That's the wholesale price before the distribution prices are added, in comparison there is a wind farm off the Massachusetts coast that just signed a deal for 18 cents kWh and a 3.5% increase for the next 15 years. That will be about 30 cents a kWh wholesale in 15 years. This is also after all the subsidization....

The cost of the raw product of course is subject to market fluctuations like any other fuel however adjusted for increased usage there is a 175 year supply safely within the borders of the US which will keep prices at a reasonable rate. We can use the price of natural gas as an example, If you go back to 2007 it was going through the roof right along with oil. That hasn't happened now because they are now tapping into a very large resource in the Marcellus shale. Supply and demand.... it's a basic market principal.
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:42 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,660,138 times
Reputation: 24861
There is an even bigger supply of Uranium if we recycle and reuse the fuel rods to extract the maximum amount of energy available.

I am expecting the wimpoids to scream and cry "Radiation! Radiation! Evil Radiation!” Have they ever checked the radiation levels at a coal fired power plant's ash pile? Many have concentrated Uranium to nearly mineable levels. Until we develop Nuclear Power we should capture as much renewable energy as possible. That includes hydroelectric, wind, tidal and solar sources. Most anything is better than the crap we dump into the atmosphere from burning coal.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:11 AM
 
Location: France, that's in Europe
329 posts, read 266,699 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
That's the wholesale price before the distribution prices are added, in comparison there is a wind farm off the Massachusetts coast that just signed a deal for 18 cents kWh and a 3.5% increase for the next 15 years. That will be about 30 cents a kWh wholesale in 15 years. This is also after all the subsidization....
Note that the 18.7 c/kWh price that you allude to is for 2013. Combining data from two stories: Cape Wind seeks utility deal tie-in - Page 2 - Boston.com
and
Cape Wind wants proposed utilities merger to include PPA - Politics - Renewable energy news - Recharge - wind, solar, biomass, wave/tidal/hydro and geothermal it appears that Cape Wind will supply about 2% of the electricity for the utilities in the area. If the cost of the current plant that provides this 2% is grater than 18.7c/kWh, it will work out cheaper for the consumer.

This is due to the merit order effect...

You're refering to an average wholesale price of 4c/kWh. However, electricity is generated by all sorts of power stations with different efficiencies and costs. Naturally you want to keep the most efficient and cheapest ones running as much as possible and only bring on-line the more expensive ones. So when wind power comes on-line it displaces the ones that are more expensive and incidentally probably the most polluting.

This should be essential reading for those who oppose renewables.
http://www.ewea.org/fileadmin/ewea_d...MeritOrder.pdf

Here's a quote from Cape Wind's FAQ:
Quote:
· How would Cape Wind impact electricity prices?
Cape Wind will help to stabilize and even reduce the price of electricity. Cape Wind will do this in 3 ways:
1) Cape Wind will reduce the clearing price for electricity in the New England spot market by reducing operations of the regions most expensive power plants, this will reduce electricity prices in New England by 25 million dollars per year.
2) Cape Wind will reduce the implementation costs of the Renewable Portfolio Standard to Massachusetts electricity consumers by increasing the supply of renewable energy certificates.
3) Cape Wind will pursue long-term power contract(s) that will lock-in a fixed price for electricity for a term of ten or more years. This would provide electricity consumers purchasing Cape Wind energy with far greater electric price stability and price certainty than is typically available.
Cape Wind :: America's First Offshore Wind Farm on Nantucket Sound
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:18 AM
 
Location: France, that's in Europe
329 posts, read 266,699 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
The cost of the raw product of course is subject to market fluctuations like any other fuel however adjusted for increased usage there is a 175 year supply safely within the borders of the US which will keep prices at a reasonable rate. We can use the price of natural gas as an example, If you go back to 2007 it was going through the roof right along with oil. That hasn't happened now because they are now tapping into a very large resource in the Marcellus shale. Supply and demand.... it's a basic market principal.
Supply and demand: indeed, which poses a problem for those who want to develop fossil fuel sources. How much are you prepared to invest today on a project that will take years to come to fruition with a risk that your project will create oversupply causing a drop in price? As you have rightly pointed out, the natural gas price has dropped since 2007. I wonder how the investors in the Marcellus project feel?

As I mentioned elsewhere: the Energy Return On Investment from fossil fuels has dropped from 100:1 in the 1930's to projected 5:1 or less for new sources. EROI for wind is 18:1 Where do you think the smart money should go?
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:23 AM
 
Location: France, that's in Europe
329 posts, read 266,699 times
Reputation: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
I wonder if GE will pay taxes again in 2013 after Obama is out?

I'm a capitalist: I like my companies (and myself) to pay the minimum amount of tax legally possible. I understand that it's also a legal requirement in the USA for companies to maximise shareholder value.

So if you object to GE minimising its tax bill what does that make you?
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:38 AM
 
Location: Michigan
5,376 posts, read 5,336,897 times
Reputation: 1633
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRAMERCAT View Post
GE was awarded 44 contracts totaling over $46,000,000 and 44 grants totaling more than $79,000,000 from the Obama-Pelosi $757 billion dollar stimulus package.

Millions of dollars in stimulus funds were used by GE in green energy projects.

Today GE announced that it was going to gut its offshore wind-power plans.


GE Decides to Dump Offshore Wind-Power Plans Despite Collecting Millions in Stimulus Funds for Wind Projects | The Gateway Pundit
Scaling back is gutting?

"The 4.1-113 four MW direct-drive offshore turbine developed by GE in Norway performs very well in shallow waters, but leaves a lot to be desired in deeper waters. As a result, GE has shifted its focus in the deep-water space to developing a 10-15 MW turbine using superconducting magnets"

"Despite GE’s strategic shift, plans to deploy the first 4.1 MW prototype in Gothenberg harbor later this year are still on track".



The Chinese government is putting 15 billion into wind. Guess some are happy with 2nd class status for the US. We lost solar panels to them, and it looks like wind next. We still have batteries, but with the one track mind of some, that will go too.
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:18 PM
 
Location: France, that's in Europe
329 posts, read 266,699 times
Reputation: 44
I mentioned the externalities that are not included in the cost of coal fire electricity. Here's a study that quantifies them at a minimum of 9c/kWh, median 18c/kWh and a maximum of about 28c/kWh.

http://chronmyklimat.pl/theme/Upload...0of%20coal.pdf

It also mentions subsidies:
Quote:
The U.S. Federal Government provides subsides
for electricity and mining activities, and these have
been tallied by both the EIA and the Environmental
Law Institute.2,127,128 The EIA estimate is $3.17
billion of subsidies in 2007, or 0.16¢/kWh, and the
Environmental Law Institute estimate is $5.37 billion
for 2007, or 0.27¢/kWh.
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:20 PM
 
Location: France, that's in Europe
329 posts, read 266,699 times
Reputation: 44
AEAweb Journal Articles Display

Quote:
This study presents a framework to include environmental externalities into a system of national accounts. The paper estimates the air pollution damages for each industry in the United States. An integrated-assessment model quantifies the marginal damages of air pollution emissions for the US which are multiplied times the quantity of emissions by industry to compute gross damages. Solid waste combustion, sewage treatment, stone quarrying, marinas, and oil and coal-fired power plants have air pollution damages larger than their value added. The largest industrial contributor to external costs is coal-fired electric generation, whose damages range from 0.8 to 5.6 times value added.

Last edited by Turboblocke; 10-14-2011 at 04:21 PM.. Reason: formatting
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Orlando
8,275 posts, read 12,834,623 times
Reputation: 4142
Well I sent my letter to the white house demanding them to get our money back.

anyone else wanna follow suit?
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