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Old 11-24-2013, 10:25 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,915 posts, read 24,537,689 times
Reputation: 9708

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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Seriously?

My entire 2nd grade was spent in a trailer classroom about 200 yards from the school building, with GROSSLY insufficient heating and washroom capabilities. We all had to wear coats, hats, and mittens IN class all day.

Fast-forward 25 years and my high-school aged kids had to attend math classes in similar trailers due to an influx of illegal immigrants in our area (Chicago metro - illegal sanctuary region) bloating school registrations. By Illinois law, immigrants CANNOT be asked to show proof of legal residency status. That has mushroomed into school admin being afraid to even ask for proof of district residency.
No, never seen one. But I did not go to school in the US.

Well, as long as those illegal parents are in the country, there is no point in not schooling their kids. I mean, what if they end up staying legally after all, then you have kids that can't become part of society and thus become a problem.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:35 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,444 posts, read 44,129,519 times
Reputation: 13473
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Well, as long as those illegal parents are in the country, there is no point in not schooling their kids. I mean, what if they end up staying legally after all, then you have kids that can't become part of society and thus become a problem.
You would have a point of they weren't such a huge portion of the incarcerated, or of the welfare-dependent class. As such, they're a net/net/net drain on society.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:37 AM
 
Location: The analog world
17,077 posts, read 13,238,978 times
Reputation: 22904
I wasn't aware that public school students are unable to read. I wonder just what my kids and their friends have been doing all this time with the myriad books they haul home from bookstores and libraries or load onto their e-readers. Our library account currently shows more than 40 titles checked out between the five of us, so it sure seems like my kids are capable of reading and enjoy it immensely, despite their public school education.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:45 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,444 posts, read 44,129,519 times
Reputation: 13473
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
I wasn't aware that public school students are unable to read. I wonder just what my kids and their friends have been doing all this time with the myriad books they haul home from bookstores and libraries or load onto their e-readers. Our library account currently shows more than 40 titles checked out between the five of us, so it sure seems like my kids are capable of reading and enjoy it immensely, despite their public school education.
Wake up call...

ed school crisis

Discusses the ugly and vapid history of pedagogy, plus how other schools in universities nationwide view their schools of education. Hint: it isn't kindly. The words "crayon curriculum" come to mind.

And look at the more recent TIMSS, PISA, etc. analyses. They confirm that the quality of U.S. public education has continued the downward a downward spiral for several decades, with the most damage done to the students with moderate and high potential.

"One of the more ominous findings in the latest study is that even the American students taking advanced courses could not measure up to students from other nations. In math, they ranked 15th out of 16 nations. In physics, U.S. seniors ranked dead last."
U.S. Top Teens Rank at Bottom in Math, Science

"Even when they isolated students with at least one college-educated parent, they found only 10.3 percent reached the advanced level, a group still outperformed by all test-takers from 16 nations.
'That pinpoints the issue that we have to improve: our schools,' Hanushek said. 'We can’t just pretend that it’s all because of the parents.' "
Stanford Daily | U.S. lags behind in advanced math scores

Look at the NAEP vs. State NCLB test comparisons. Not a single state educates even half of its students to bare-minimum very basic grade-level proficiency, with most hiding that fact by dumbing-down their NCLB tests year after year:
NAEP Researchcenter - NAEP and State Equivalent Percent Table

There IS plenty of empirical data proving that the educational philosophies/methods implemented and used in U.S. public schools for the last 4 decades DO NOT WORK. The result has been a severely dumbed-down populace, with the greatest losses occurring among those who would have been middle class and even those who had the greatest potential - our most advanced and highest-ability students.

I have even more sources, if you wish.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,028,404 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
I wasn't aware that public school students are unable to read. I wonder just what my kids and their friends have been doing all this time with the myriad books they haul home from bookstores and libraries or load onto their e-readers. Our library account currently shows more than 40 titles checked out between the five of us, so it sure seems like my kids are capable of reading and enjoy it immensely, despite their public school education.
Do your kids go to a low performing, at risk, Title 1 inner city school ?
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:02 AM
 
Location: The analog world
17,077 posts, read 13,238,978 times
Reputation: 22904
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Do your kids go to a low performing, at risk, Title 1 inner city school ?
They do not. Do yours?

My issue with the incredibly inflammatory post that started this "debate" is its sweeping generalization that kids enrolled in public schools cannot read. That kind of statement is easy to refute. Plenty of children attending public schools can and do read well, mine included. Furthermore, my children are tackling and mastering material a full two-to-three years earlier than I did forty years ago, especially in math and science. Stoichiometry for freshmen, anyone? Now I'm not suggesting that there isn't room for improvement, but I grow weary of hyperbole. Last time I checked high school language arts classes still require Dickens, Shakespeare, Hawthorne, & Conrad, just like the ones I took in the long ago dark ages.

Last edited by randomparent; 11-24-2013 at 12:08 PM..
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,084 posts, read 14,233,908 times
Reputation: 9789
Deborah Stipek, dean of the Stanford School of Education, agreed that the root of the problem lies almost entirely in the schools.
“On average, elementary school teachers perpetuate poor teaching,” Stipek said. She attributes this to the low status and low pay of American teachers compared to those in other countries.
“In Finland and Japan, teachers are extremely high-status and well-paid,” she said. “Here, they are paid very poorly relative to other professions in the country that require the same level of education.”
Stanford Daily | U.S. lags behind in advanced math scores

This may be a huge part of the problem.
What kind of people will a profession with low pay and low respect, attract?
In Finland, the teachers are absolutely revered, and it's an extremely high-status profession. As a result, the students kick a$$ in PISA tests.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:14 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,915 posts, read 24,537,689 times
Reputation: 9708
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
You would have a point of they weren't such a huge portion of the incarcerated, or of the welfare-dependent class. As such, they're a net/net/net drain on society.
Illegal immigration requires fast processing. Either sending them back promptly or allowing them to integrate into society so they can lead decent lives, adapt etc. The limbo status is a problem in many countries...
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:55 AM
 
6,993 posts, read 6,303,543 times
Reputation: 2823
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Wake up call...

ed school crisis

Discusses the ugly and vapid history of pedagogy, plus how other schools in universities nationwide view their schools of education. Hint: it isn't kindly. The words "crayon curriculum" come to mind.

And look at the more recent TIMSS, PISA, etc. analyses. They confirm that the quality of U.S. public education has continued the downward a downward spiral for several decades, with the most damage done to the students with moderate and high potential.

"One of the more ominous findings in the latest study is that even the American students taking advanced courses could not measure up to students from other nations. In math, they ranked 15th out of 16 nations. In physics, U.S. seniors ranked dead last."
U.S. Top Teens Rank at Bottom in Math, Science

"Even when they isolated students with at least one college-educated parent, they found only 10.3 percent reached the advanced level, a group still outperformed by all test-takers from 16 nations.
'That pinpoints the issue that we have to improve: our schools,' Hanushek said. 'We can’t just pretend that it’s all because of the parents.' "
Stanford Daily | U.S. lags behind in advanced math scores

Look at the NAEP vs. State NCLB test comparisons. Not a single state educates even half of its students to bare-minimum very basic grade-level proficiency, with most hiding that fact by dumbing-down their NCLB tests year after year:
NAEP Researchcenter - NAEP and State Equivalent Percent Table

There IS plenty of empirical data proving that the educational philosophies/methods implemented and used in U.S. public schools for the last 4 decades DO NOT WORK. The result has been a severely dumbed-down populace, with the greatest losses occurring among those who would have been middle class and even those who had the greatest potential - our most advanced and highest-ability students.

I have even more sources, if you wish.
Severely dumbed-down? Seriously??

American students have never been the best in the world - even back in the 50s and 60s. However, they have never been, and are not now, as bad as you and some other posters say they are. Prognosticators of educational doom and gloom have been doing their thing for as long as I can remember. In the early years of my teaching career, their purpose was just doom and gloom, sort of, "things were so much better when I was a kid" - an attitude that is endemic to every generation and can pretty much be laughed away.

In the past couple of decades the 'doom and gloomers' have had a method in their meanness - the privatization of public education. Big business wants the big bucks spent on educating America's children. So, there has been a concerted effort to make America's public schools look as bad as possible, which has enjoyed great success amongst a large segment of Americans who are severely deficient in critical thinking skills.

From another source:
Quote:
American students have never been the best in the world. For the record, TIMSS (despite its name) also tests reading these days, and it turns out that American kids in general did pretty well in the latest round of testing: 9th out of 56 in math, 10th out of 56 in science, and 6th out of 53 in reading. For some reason, though, you never hear about that. After all, everyone, both liberals and conservatives, has their own educational hobbyhorses, and it's a lot easier to promote them if you tell an alarming story of educational decline. But the truth is different. If you look at all the evidence—TIMSS, PIRLS, PISA, NAEP, and other metrics—the story is rather more mixed and nuanced. America continues to do a poor job of educating its low-income kids and its black and Hispanic kids, something that's especially inexcusable given the increasing evidence that these children are far behind their peers even before they get to kindergarten. On the other hand, American kids more broadly are (a) doing better over time and (b) doing fairly well compared to kids in other countries. Like it or not, that's the story.How Smart Are American Kids? | Mother Jones
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Old 11-24-2013, 12:58 PM
 
Location: The analog world
17,077 posts, read 13,238,978 times
Reputation: 22904
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
Deborah Stipek, dean of the Stanford School of Education, agreed that the root of the problem lies almost entirely in the schools.
“On average, elementary school teachers perpetuate poor teaching,” Stipek said. She attributes this to the low status and low pay of American teachers compared to those in other countries.
“In Finland and Japan, teachers are extremely high-status and well-paid,” she said. “Here, they are paid very poorly relative to other professions in the country that require the same level of education.”
Stanford Daily | U.S. lags behind in advanced math scores

This may be a huge part of the problem.
What kind of people will a profession with low pay and low respect, attract?
In Finland, the teachers are absolutely revered, and it's an extremely high-status profession. As a result, the students kick a$$ in PISA tests.
Thread drift. The OP questioned the reading ability of public school students. Stipek is opining about math education in the linked article.
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