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Old 09-16-2011, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Home, Home on the Front Range
25,827 posts, read 20,282,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
Here is a good example............

"Public school teachers with unacceptable English pronunciation and grammar are being protected by the Obama Administration, which has forced one state to eliminate a fluency monitoring program created to comply with a 2002 federal education law."

They of course will never be fired.

"Protected by the power of their union, no teachers have been fired for fluency issues. They have simply been reassigned and districts are required to develop “corrective-action plans” to improve their English. "

Folks are always whining how we don't have any money for schools. Well no wonder when they gotta teach the teachers how to speak the language to begin with.

DOJ Protects Teachers With Unacceptable English Skills | Judicial Watch (http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/sep/doj-protects-teachers-unacceptable-english-skills - broken link)
I'm still wondering what was expected when school districts imported teachers from Latin America and other non-English speaking countries.
If proper English pronuciation was one of the job requirements, they should have said so before hiring them.
Seems to me that their fluency, or lack thereof, would have been very apparent during the face-to-face interview.
Or, did they just hire them over the 'net?

I don't fault the administration for their actions.
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Old 09-16-2011, 12:41 PM
 
2,674 posts, read 3,197,945 times
Reputation: 1996
Quote:
Originally Posted by redroses777 View Post
That is not entirely accurate. I was a public school teacher prior to getting laid off. I had students who couldn't read. Before a child can get extra help, the teacher has to keep records of interventions used. Then, if those don't work, then, a meeting is scheduled, often months later. Then, at the meeting, the parent signs a paper to give permission for special education testing. The special education testing usually occurs months after the meeting. By now, it is the end of the school year and the teacher typically finds out the child qualifies for special education services, but the child has missed at least 5 months to an entire school year of the help he or she so desperately needed.
Good grief!!!! Think there is enough red tape involved in getting needed help to a child?

A few weeks ago, my daughter told me that approximately 50% of Americans read at an 8th grade level or below. She was informed at a meeting at her hospital job that the level had dropped to the 4th grade level. I did not believe her, and when I checked the literacy statistics I was shocked.

Quote:
Nearly half of America's adults are poor readers, or "functionally illiterate." They can't carry out simply tasks like balancing check books, reading drug labels or writing essays for a job.
Reading, Literacy & Education Statistics - The Literacy CompanyThe Literacy Company

The Informatics Review : Comprehension and reading level (http://www.informatics-review.com/FAQ/reading.html - broken link)

Every single night I read a story to my mom as she washed dishes. I read from the 'reader' that was assigned to me by the public school. When I approached a word I didn't know I had to write the word five times, and learn the meaning. My mom required this. She had an 8th grade education and grew up in extreme poverty.

I didn't grow up even remotely close to middle-class. However; me and my two siblings received a decent public school education. I eventually obtained a B.S. in biology with a minor in chemistry. I was a non-traditional student. Ten years later, I've started an M.S. in environmental science and maintain a 4.0 GPA while working full-time. My daughter works and attends college full-time. My elderly mom lives with me since she should no longer live alone. It's a struggle, but we get it done. I've always told my daughter it is not an option for her to NOT get a degree.

I'm a political liberal, and I think the perception about liberals is often way off base. We still have to take initiative and do for ourselves! People get that wrong about liberals. That is NOT an option unless someone has mental or physical disabilities. One does not have to be a conservative or a liberal to grasp that this country is breaking down on many fronts. We do not have to be well off, or even middle-class to read to your child EVERY night. I did it. She was reading at an upper 9th grade level when she was in 4th grade.

This is a cycle. If the parents can't read then the children probably will be in the same spot. It takes work beyond the classroom. A child will need to practice reading and math skills outside of the normal school hours to get good. If the parent can't read they can't help.
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Old 09-16-2011, 01:46 PM
 
Location: central Oregon
1,906 posts, read 2,489,732 times
Reputation: 2489
Quote:
Originally Posted by redroses777 View Post
That is not entirely accurate. I was a public school teacher prior to getting laid off. I had students who couldn't read. Before a child can get extra help, the teacher has to keep records of interventions used. Then, if those don't work, then, a meeting is scheduled, often months later. Then, at the meeting, the parent signs a paper to give permission for special education testing. The special education testing usually occurs months after the meeting. By now, it is the end of the school year and the teacher typically finds out the child qualifies for special education services, but the child has missed at least 5 months to an entire school year of the help he or she so desperately needed.
In Oregon grade schools we have a program called S.M.A.R.T (Start Making A Reader Today). Volunteers read one on one with children the teacher has chosen as needing the extra time for reading. Volunteers read for one hour at a time and can read to as many children as they have time for.
Each month the child takes home a new book; it might be one that they have had read to them or another that takes their fancy. No matter which, they LOVE taking books home for "KEEPS".
The program runs for six months. By the end of that sixth month most of the children are reading with their volunteer reader. It is so amazing to watch them transform before your eyes.
The program is available from 1st to 3rd grades. Those who began the program in 1st grade BEG to participate in 2nd and 3rd.
This program has worked well here. I talk to many parents who still say their children talk fondly of being in the program and how the children still treasure their books. They all have continued reading and most importantly, the parents have told me they buy books for their children.


Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
You might find this research interesting...

The Early Catastrophe



The research lends credence to the contention that it is impossible for even the best teacher to bolster the working vocabulary of a student from a language-deficient home in a significant way. This is not a curriculum problem; it's a socio-economic problem.
That was a long read, but well worth it. Thanks.
I'm not sure some recent college grads could read this and understand it. Sure are some big words there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecovlke View Post
Good grief!!!! Think there is enough red tape involved in getting needed help to a child?

snip

This is a cycle. If the parents can't read then the children probably will be in the same spot. It takes work beyond the classroom. A child will need to practice reading and math skills outside of the normal school hours to get good. If the parent can't read they can't help.
I left your question here because I forgot to say above that volunteers are ALL required to get fingerprinted and have background checks. That is the extent of the red tape involved with the S.M.A.R.T program.
Of course, I am not involved behind the scenes so I have no clue how hard it is to put together a program like this. However, I think all schools should do something similar.
I loved your story of reading to your mom while washing dishes. (Only removed it to save space.) My son did the same thing from the time he was very little. He started reading around 2 years old. Before that he would memorize books I read to him and he would sit on the counter next to me and "read" those books to me. Thanks for reminding me of those special times.
Your last paragraph is one worth repeating again and again. Hence why I bolded it!
I know a mother who never read. Her kids hate to read. They have NO reading materials anywhere in their home. Not even a comic book!
I find that so very sad.
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Old 09-16-2011, 02:16 PM
Sco
 
4,259 posts, read 4,843,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
I had enough trouble trying to figure out what my teacher's from India were saying in engineering school in college. I could only imagine a child trying to learn the language and proper grammer from a teacher who speaks broken english. Not to mention the state was following federal law to begin with but that isn't good enough because according to the DOJ it violates another federal law.
Should I assume that the spelling, grammar and punctuation errors in your post are a sign that you went to public school? I love the unintentional irony of a nativist that can't properly use even one language complaining about the shortcomings of others.
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Old 09-16-2011, 02:21 PM
 
5,747 posts, read 11,882,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulani View Post
That was a long read, but well worth it. Thanks. I'm not sure some recent college grads could read this and understand it. Sure are some big words there.
I think the paper is fascinating, and it encouraged me to recommit to reading aloud to my children, particularly from books that are above their independent reading levels. Although the research focused on deficits during the first three years, I think even older children, like mine, benefit greatly from read-alouds, especially if a book contains challenging vocabulary. I think hearing words in context--and in my voice--is much more effective for broadening their working vocabularies than diligently studying their latest Wordlywise assignments.
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Old 09-16-2011, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Here
2,300 posts, read 1,988,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Skeffington View Post
Absolutely! My oldest daughter begged for it, because I started reading Golden Books to her as a baby. I used to read every night until I was hoarse. She was reading fluently herself at age four and was always at least two reading levels ahead of her class. I tried to read to her younger sister but she wouldn't sit still for it, that one just wasn't interested. She always had trouble with reading.
I'm old by internet standards (60). Ancient in fact. I predate such things as the diagnosis of dyslexia. Anyway, I was a lousy reader and a lousy student. My mother had me go through some reading improvement course. I was put in front of the TV on Saturday mornings for a program designed to help kids improve their reading speed and comprehension. None of these things did any good. I came within an eyelash of flunking a couple of different grades in elementary school. I flunked a couple of classes in high school which I was forced to make up in summer school.

I won't say I have fourished in the decades after graduating from high school, but I have seemingly become more intellectual. I believe that at least in my case basic reading was necessary but my inability to read at rapid speed with high comprehension has not been a life-destroying shortcoming. I think to a large degree TV has been my savior. Yes, television. There's NOVA on PBS. NOVA is knowledge. Both Antique Road Show and American Masters are history classes. And a movie like West Side Story is a lesson in the tragedy of social discrimination in a fictional story. Such life lessons are in books, but they can be found other places too.

A few years ago the wife really stonewalled the notion of getting cable. We could still get two digital channels over the air and that was all she needed. She figured, Why pay for TV when most of the programming is crap? Well I told her that unlike her, reading for me is very difficult. TV and to a lesser degree movies are what I have always used for education and enlightenment. We had cable by the end of the week. Apparently it's hard to argue with a tidbit of wisdom, even if it didn't come from a book.
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Old 09-16-2011, 02:47 PM
 
954 posts, read 1,263,835 times
Reputation: 384
I don't get it, I was allowed to read when I was in public schools...
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:13 PM
 
33,389 posts, read 34,014,201 times
Reputation: 20019
Quote:
Originally Posted by KUchief25 View Post
Here is a good example............

"Public school teachers with unacceptable English pronunciation and grammar are being protected by the Obama Administration, which has forced one state to eliminate a fluency monitoring program created to comply with a 2002 federal education law."

They of course will never be fired.

"Protected by the power of their union, no teachers have been fired for fluency issues. They have simply been reassigned and districts are required to develop “corrective-action plans” to improve their English. "

Folks are always whining how we don't have any money for schools. Well no wonder when they gotta teach the teachers how to speak the language to begin with.

DOJ Protects Teachers With Unacceptable English Skills | Judicial Watch (http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/sep/doj-protects-teachers-unacceptable-english-skills - broken link)
it really isnt the problem with the teachers so much as it is with the parents and the courts. in second grade, johnny cant read and thus gets held back a year, the parents find out and rather than help johnny learn to read, they sue the school system to put johnny in third grade, and the school not wanting to get sued every year, just moves little johnny along, until such time as he graduates high school as a functional illiterate. then the same parents turn around and sue the school system for just moving little johnny along without teaching him anything. so the schools are damned if they do and damned if they dont.

this has been going on for decades now. had i been a judge back in those times i would have told the parents to get involved in johnnys education, and let the schools do their jobs. as it is now we have a top heavy administration for schools, and the large majority of the money that gets thrown at the schools gets passed around at the top and very little filters down to the schools. we need to eliminate the unions, and the department of education as a cabinet level department, put it back where it was in the 30s, and let the states deal with education like they should, and we can then start to improve the education system in this country.

we have to eliminate the social engineering and political brainwashing of our children, and teach them proper science, history, etc. and we need to set a standard for the children to meet or exceed, and if they dont meet the standard, they dont move on to the next grade. simple as that.
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Tampa Florida
22,232 posts, read 17,569,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nr5667 View Post
I don't get it, I was allowed to read when I was in public schools...
Those complaining about this were as well. They just never caught on to the comprehension part.
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:23 PM
 
6,993 posts, read 6,239,775 times
Reputation: 2822
Quote:
Originally Posted by doc1 View Post
Once some collleges started offering remedial reading and writing classes to their incoming freshmen I knew then that something had gone haywire in the public education system.
Colleges started offering remedial reading/writing/math classes because over the past 60 years college has become available to a larger pool of students, many of them disadvantaged economically, socially, and culturally.

When I was a senior in high school, only the top students were accepted into college, today almost anyone can go.

Quote:
Critics have been complaining about the public schools for the past 60 years. In the 1950s, they said that the public schools were failing, Johnny couldn’t read, and the schools were in a downward spiral. In the 1960s, we were told there was a “crisis in the classroom.” For at least the past half-century we have heard the same complaints again and again. Yes, our students’ scores on international tests are only average, but when the first such test was given in 1964, we were 12th out of 12. Our students have never been at the top on those tests.American Schools in Crisis | Saturday Evening Post
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