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Originally Posted by DraggingCanoe
The letter to Dumas was signed by several Founders...one was the President of the Continental Congress.
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So what ? We know that Vattel was mentioned during the Constitutional Convention (no on here disagrees with that)
We are arguing against what birthers like to claim: that he had a heavy influence on the founders during the drafting of the US Constitution.
When that is not the case. Vattel was only referenced for the artilces that dealt with International Law and how a nation should proceed against countries that have conflicting laws.
That was at most, his contribution to the founding fathers, his perspective on International Law. Taht was Vattel's expertise.
BTW, why did you ignore the part where Vattel in the Law of nations, recognized that citizenship can be gotten by Jus sanguis and Jus Soli?
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Vattel gave the Founders legal justification to have their Revolution, parts of the Bill of Rights, Jefferson consulted Vattel's Law of Nations while drafting the Declaration of Independence.
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Yes, during a time when a new nation wants to seceed away from the mother country, it would be wise to consult someone who would know exactly what to say and how to do so. Say like someone who is familiar with INTERNATIONAL LAW maybe?
but like many sources and that Jefferson used, Vattel was one of many.
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Stating Vattel's opinions did not matter to the Framers is not based on fact.
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And you're over simplifying what we are stating. No where did we say that Vattel didn't have an influence. We are saying that HE had absotely NO influence when it came to citizenship.
Why? Beause that wasn't the major issue of his books. His books were about INTERNATIONAL Law, to understand the LAWS of other countries, and HOW to deal with them.
Why did you ignore the part where Vattel admitted that many countries (and he used England as an example) used jus soli to determine citizenship unlike his country of Sweden which relied on Jus sanguis?
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The Supreme Court often quotes Vattel..even chapter 19 page 101.
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Chapter 19 page 101 of WHAT?
The only Supreme Court mention of Vattel in relation to Citizenship were of the dissenting opinions in US v Wong Kim Ark and the horrible Dredd Scott case (which is one of the reason why the 14th Amendment was passed).
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Vattel was referenced in a 2008 hand gun carry trial.. District of Columbia v Dick Anthony HELLER.
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and this has to do with his non-influence on citizenship, how?
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Guess the Justices on the Supreme Court are Swiss citizens...since Vattel's opinions do not matter to Americans.
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and this has to do with his non-influence on citizenship, how?
Again, no one said that none of the founders used Vattel (in matters of Law)
We argue, that your claim that our founding founders primarily used Vattel for citizenship issues, is unfounded. Our founding fathers were from ENGLAND or children of those from ENGLAND
Many of them were lawyers who were FAMILIAR with ENGLISH COMMON LAW
They used BLACKSTONE very heavily (nearly 3 times more than Vattel) in the drafting of the Constitution and many of our articles reflect Blacsktone's Articles as well as are lifted straight from English Common Law.
Thomas Jefferson in drafting the Declaration of Independence wrote Subjects before replacing it with citizens
Jefferson’s Hidden Change to the Declaration | Wired Science | Wired.com
so, we have English speaking scholars and lawyers, heavily educated in English Common Law looking to laws written in ENGLISH to draft a document that would enumerate government powers and issues
Or
a Swiss philosopher, who is an expert on International Law and treaties, who wrote primarily in French, of which the word natural born didn't appear until 30 years after his death, and 10 years after the ratification of the US Constitution.
The words natural -born doesn't appear in Vattel's Law OF nations till after we were already the United States of America.
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