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Given the state of sexual repression society at large is in, I don't think it compares quite yet. We would have to go through a profound sexual revolution before people could handle public nudity. But I do think that once we are more evolved as a population, we will be able to handle full-on nudity without all the kindergartner reactions--"oh my god, look at his no-no parts!" Some parts of Europe are much less sexually repressed as is, and that's why they can and do have nude beaches and life goes on. I think society, specifically American society, is ready to face a woman wearing a niqab now, though. Like I said, people cover themselves to the same degree in America in other scenarios. Facial hair, sunglasses, hoodies, etc. all obstruct the face/head area just as much as a hijab. The only difference is the religious connotation. I stand by my viewpoint that I believe the vast majority of people who are for a hijab ban are couching their xenophobia in other reasons like "security" and "socialization".
Religion is not medicine, but for some, it is to be taken as seriously as medicine. Why can't people respect that? I take my faith as seriously as I do medicine, but mine just happens not to be visible on the outside. But if it were, then I would want others to respect it and make exceptions for it just as much they do my blindness. I would do the same for them--and I do.
I don't have a problem having niqabi and burqa'i women remove their niqab/burqa' in the presence of another women for ID verification and for ID photo. I think that's reasonable. I would also remove my sunglasses for ID verification/ID photo if I were asked to. (Interestingly enough, I've only been asked once in the numerous times I've had to show ID. I've gone through the entire process of applying for, qualifying for, and receiving social security benefits without ever once having to remove my sunglasses.) But that's not at all the same as banning hijab altogether. Honestly I can't see any real reason people want to ban hijab other than because of their own fear or disdain for Islam.
I don't think any Western society is or ever will be ready for people wearing a veil in front of their faces. A scarf covering the hair is the utmost the majority of people in the West can tolerate.
I have been in the Muslim world and women from the West can't dress there like they do in the West. Why would it be any different the other way round? I call it cultural identity rather than xenophobia.
Nor do I accept lumping beards together with face veils. The first is natural, the other is a choice, in the West a choice people know will offend, so they are doing it deliberately.
Nor is it about religion as nowhere in the Koran does it say women should hide their faces.
I don't think any Western society is or ever will be ready for people wearing a veil in front of their faces. A scarf covering the hair is the utmost the majority of people in the West can tolerate.
I have been in the Muslim world and women from the West can't dress there like they do in the West. Why would it be any different the other way round? I call it cultural identity rather than xenophobia.
Nor do I accept lumping beards together with face veils. The first is natural, the other is a choice, in the West a choice people know will offend, so they are doing it deliberately.
Nor is it about religion as nowhere in the Koran does it say women should hide their faces.
It's a religious issue because people do it for religious reasons. The Amish lead their lifestyle for religious reasons even though most of the laws they abide by are not in their Bible. If someone's intent is religious, it becomes a religious issue.
I believe women in the Islamic world should dress as they like as well, and I believe that if that isn't how it happens in the Islamic world, then we should take the higher road and show tolerance by example.
If a student can be banned from school because his tee shirt has the image of the American flag on it we sure as hell can and should have a burqa ban...
Seeing how muslims are so trustworthy how would anyone know there wasn't a terrorist with a machine gun or 50 pounds of high explosive under the black sheet?
Seeing how a woman in the muslim world is lower than a cockroach and nothing more then a seamen receptacle I have no problem women wearing it THERE but not HERE.
If a student can be banned from school because his tee shirt has the image of the American flag on it we sure as hell can and should have a burqa ban...
Seeing how muslims are so trustworthy how would anyone know there wasn't a terrorist with a machine gun or 50 pounds of high explosive under the black sheet?
Seeing how a woman in the muslim world is lower than a cockroach and nothing more then a seamen receptacle I have no problem women wearing it THERE but not HERE.
When a woman is forced to wear it, it's oppression. She is being treated like a cockroach. When she chooses to wear it, it's freedom. She is exercising her rights as a woman and as a human being. See the difference?
The veil and what the law really means ... I have to side with the muslim ladies .. and its odd as I don't approve/believe / trust the Religion of Islam BUT the way this law is applied is deffiently anti woman and I wonder if its allowed to stand what will happen next to women in general .. what about american women of the muslim faith .. very few here wear a veil and I am glad they don't but should we deny the right to follow ones beliefs in a nation of freedom? I think the struggle will pass to America soon and then I think all women should be damn scared of the backlash from the far right concerning all womens rights not just the muslim woman but all women ..
Do you really care about women's rights and equality, or are you simply unhappy because muslims wear veils.
What other stand do you take for women?
Why do you make an exception for medical reasons but not religious reasons? Many people take their religion as seriously as they do treating a medical condition.
What this really boils down to, it seems, is, are you (general you) able to respect that other people have a different set of beliefs?
Again, there is a degree of seperation of church and state. The state cant allow any and all religious liberities to superceed civil law. As most can respect different beliefs but also feel personal beliefs should be kept to your private life if those practices interfere, disrupt or go against the common welfare of the general public.
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Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
Given the state of sexual repression society at large is in, I don't think it compares quite yet. We would have to go through a profound sexual revolution before people could handle public nudity. But I do think that once we are more evolved as a population, we will be able to handle full-on nudity without all the kindergartner reactions--"oh my god, look at his no-no parts!" Some parts of Europe are much less sexually repressed as is, and that's why they can and do have nude beaches and life goes on. I think society, specifically American society, is ready to face a woman wearing a niqab now, though. Like I said, people cover themselves to the same degree in America in other scenarios. Facial hair, sunglasses, hoodies, etc. all obstruct the face/head area just as much as a hijab. The only difference is the religious connotation. I stand by my viewpoint that I believe the vast majority of people who are for a hijab ban are couching their xenophobia in other reasons like "security" and "socialization".
Smells like hypocrisy. Sure it compares. You endorse allowing women or men (do you really know it is a woman under there) to go about business in public and government buildings wearing full body coverings representative of societies apprehension towards a certain group given the current environment because it is your opinion that society is ready to accept it. At the same time, it is your opinion, that society is not ready to accept nudity so it is ok to ban nudity in public. What is the difference. One religion believes in full covering, one in complete nudity. Both dictate a ban on that particular dress (or lack of) in public settings. Both are free to practice this belief in private. How is one a violation of civil or religious rights and one not. Because of you personal opinion of what society is ready for?
As far as facial hair, sunglasses, etc. obstructing view as much as the hijab, from viewing the video, I don’t think so. And most people remove sunglasses, lower hoodies, hats and other head and facial coverings when entering buildings or interacting with others.
Would you be supportive of white supremacist wearing the white hooded robes representitive of the KKK going about their day to day business or would your xenophobia support a ban on such attire for reasons like security and socialization?
It's a religious issue because people do it for religious reasons. The Amish lead their lifestyle for religious reasons even though most of the laws they abide by are not in their Bible. If someone's intent is religious, it becomes a religious issue.
I believe women in the Islamic world should dress as they like as well, and I believe that if that isn't how it happens in the Islamic world, then we should take the higher road and show tolerance by example.
But the Amish don't really live among normal society. And when they do, they have be behave like the rest of society. When they have to visit some agency located in a high-rise office building, they may have to use an elevator, if they find that too modern or not. What they do in their secluded Amish towns is their business, just like I don't care about what Muslims wear at home.
Not to mention that the Amish do not cover their faces.
Humans live in societies. The face is THE part of the body that connects people when they have anything to do with each other. Even total strangers may smile at each other in order to greet each other when passing.
Nor do I care what Muslims wear in the Muslim world. But Muslims in the West should stick to the minimum requirements of their religion, not try to enforce their radical view of it, hiding behind and hijacking their religion.
Those radically dressing Muslims are hurting their own fellow Muslims of both sexes as it's difficult enough already for them to fight the widespread suspicion and distrust towards them in the West.
Tolerance does not mean accepting everything and anything.
last time I checked you couldn't say a prayer in a public school.
Who told you that? You're free to pray in a public school as an individual, not as an organizer or as a part of organized collective on others time and dime. It is how personal liberties were always meant to be... keep your nose out of others' affairs.
Again, there is a degree of seperation of church and state. The state cant allow any and all religious liberities to superceed civil law. As most can respect different beliefs but also feel personal beliefs should be kept to your private life if those practices interfere, disrupt or go against the common welfare of the general public.
Smells like hypocrisy. Sure it compares. You endorse allowing women or men (do you really know it is a woman under there) to go about business in public and government buildings wearing full body coverings representative of societies apprehension towards a certain group given the current environment because it is your opinion that society is ready to accept it. At the same time, it is your opinion, that society is not ready to accept nudity so it is ok to ban nudity in public. What is the difference. One religion believes in full covering, one in complete nudity. Both dictate a ban on that particular dress (or lack of) in public settings. Both are free to practice this belief in private. How is one a violation of civil or religious rights and one not. Because of you personal opinion of what society is ready for?
As far as facial hair, sunglasses, etc. obstructing view as much as the hijab, from viewing the video, I don’t think so. And most people remove sunglasses, lower hoodies, hats and other head and facial coverings when entering buildings or interacting with others.
Would you be supportive of white supremacist wearing the white hooded robes representitive of the KKK going about their day to day business or would your xenophobia support a ban on such attire for reasons like security and socialization?
People are hypocritical to allow hoodies and sunglasses but want to ban the hijab.
Honestly, if it were totally up to me, I'd say let people run around naked and in KKK robes. H.ll, from a personal point of view, I'm blind anyway. I couldn't care less.
I'm thinking about other people here. The social upheaval that nudity and wearing KKK robes would cause would be MUCH greater than that of a hijab, given that being fully clothed is not nearly as foreign a concept as being fully nude within the social context of Western societies. People bundle up in the cold but they don't even get naked when it's 100 degrees outside. Where I live, when you walk down the street, you can see people on the streets in suits even in the dead of summer. I do recognize there is a sociocultural aspect at play here, but I just don't think that being fully clothed is as extreme as being fully nude in the eyes of society. Covering oneself fully is not at far from what we do every day (covering ourselves mostly but not entirely) as being fully nude is.
I do realize it's inconsistent. That's my point. Society is inconsistent. That's why being clothed and being naked aren't equivalent today. My point of view is that society can make the leap to a hijab. Society can't make the leap to full frontal nudity yet. Just my opinion. But I'm also not going to go out and try to enforce or ban anyone from doing anything based on my opinion. If there was a huge pro-nudity movement, I would support it. If you don't like the hijab on a personal level, I have no problem with that. It's the desire to ban it I take issue with. I don't think banning nudity is any wiser an idea, but unfortunately for nudists, as it stands now, there are just simply way too many people who want to keep nudity banned. Not to mention, it's much harder to lift a ban than it is to implement one. Would I vote for lifting the nudity ban tomorrow? Yes.
On the flip-side, I think women that choose to wear hijab have to accept the social, political, and religious implications that come along with wearing hijab in Western society--along with everyone else. THey can't turn around and complain about how people judge them, any more than someone with a fluorescent green mohawk can. If you do something that strays considerably from the norm, people will judge you and see you differently. I hold them responsible for that. But I also hold society responsible for accepting that there will always be members who stray considerably from the norm, and I hold them responsible for tolerating those members of society just as much as they do those that adhere to the norm.
But the Amish don't really live among normal society. And when they do, they have be behave like the rest of society. When they have to visit some agency located in a high-rise office building, they may have to use an elevator, if they find that too modern or not. What they do in their secluded Amish towns is their business, just like I don't care about what Muslims wear at home.
Not to mention that the Amish do not cover their faces.
My point with the Amish was that people follow religious practices that aren't directly written in their holy texts all the time. If it's religiously motivated, it's a religious issue.
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Humans live in societies. The face is THE part of the body that connects people when they have anything to do with each other. Even total strangers may smile at each other in order to greet each other when passing.
I can't see your face and you can't see my face right now, but we are interacting. I never see people's faces and I interact with them just fine. The whole face/body language argument just sounds like an excuse to me.
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Nor do I care what Muslims wear in the Muslim world. But Muslims in the West should stick to the minimum requirements of their religion, not try to enforce their radical view of it, hiding behind and hijacking their religion.
Wearing hijab isn't enforcing. Strawman.
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Those radically dressing Muslims are hurting their own fellow Muslims of both sexes as it's difficult enough already for them to fight the widespread suspicion and distrust towards them in the West.
Tolerance does not mean accepting everything and anything.
In a lot of ways, I agree. If I was Muslim, I would probably choose not to wear hijab for similar reasons. I don't deny that hijab is stigmatized in Western society. But does that really justify a ban?
That's where you and I differ. I believe tolerance is accepting everything and anything that does not directly harm another. Niqab might be annoying to look at, but does it really harm you?
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