Republic vs. Democracy (Representatives, independent, invasion, goverment)

[egamakaded idiut]

Democracy is a ''Bambi'' term these days, meaning democracy can be nothing but good. Problem is, this country is supposed to be a Federal Republic. A substantial amount of people don't know the difference between the two. When I hear democracy, I think majoritarian authoritarianism, absolute majority rule. As unsexy as it may sound to modern ears, when it comes to checks and balances, the people themselves have to be checked too. I think it is vital that people differentiate the two.

[ovcatto]

The argument isn't democracy vs republic. They are hybridized we live in a democratic republic the two words are no antithetical. You can have a republic without democracy but you can't have a democracy without a republic.

[Kirdik]

In Plato's Republic there're four stages of government evolution, democracy is #3 right next to tyranny #4.
The Founding fathers hated the idea of establishing a democracy because they didn't want to start out at the next stage to tyranny.

The Democrats have been demanding less democracy lately so we can transition to stage #4 as quickly as possible. To them it's progressive therefore necessary.

[Randomstudent]

Originally Posted by egamakaded idiut

Democracy is a ''Bambi'' term these days, meaning democracy can be nothing but good. Problem is, this country is supposed to be a Federal Republic. A substantial amount of people don't know the difference between the two. When I hear democracy, I think majoritarian authoritarianism, absolute majority rule. As unsexy as it may sound to modern ears, when it comes to checks and balances, the people themselves have to be checked too. I think it is vital that people differentiate the two.

I find I have to explain this many times because people don't quite get it.

Democracy has lots of different meanings just like Republic has many different meanings. The United States is both a Republic and a Democracy. A substantial amount of people don't understand that Democracy can mean Direct Democracy (Athenian Democracy), but it doesn't have to mean that. The United States is a Liberal Democracy, and a Federal Republic, and a Constitutional Republic all at the same time.

While Direct Democracy has its problems Liberal Democracy is actually the best form of government that exists.

[egamakaded idiut]

I understand they are not mutually exclusive of each other and that there are shades of gray, what I'm trying to spark as discussion is that under the umbrella term of both, a lot of people don't understand the difference.

[RCCCB]

We were made as a representative Democratic Republic with a rather small government.
What we've done to it and ourselves since the introduction of unaffordable social services and over grown government employees since the 60s was criminal and unsustainable as we now all see.

[YAZ]

We are a Constitutional Republic.

Look it up.

[Darkatt]

Originally Posted by ovcatto

The argument isn't democracy vs republic. They are hybridized we live in a democratic republic the two words are no antithetical. You can have a republic without democracy but you can't have a democracy without a republic.

This is inaccurate. Our framers believed democracy in it's purest form was Mob Rule.

We are a democratic republic, where we democratically elect people to represent us.

[jetgraphics]

Most people are mistaken.

Art.4, Sec.4, USCON.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion;....
[United States Constitution, Article 4, Section 4]

It's a common mistake to assume "republic" = "republican form".

REPUBLIC - A commonwealth; That form of government in which the administration of affairs is open to all the citizens. In another sense, it signifies the state, independent of its form of government.
Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 1302

A republic is not synonymous with a republican form of government.
The People's Republic of China is a republic but not a republican form.

REPUBLICAN FORM

GOVERNMENT (Republican Form of Government)- One in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people,... directly...
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 695

DEMOCRATIC FORM

DEMOCRACY - That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy."
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, P. 432

The key distinguishing feature between a republican and democratic form is sovereignty.

In the republican form, the PEOPLE individually are sovereign and directly exercise that power.
In the democratic form, the "whole body of citizens" indirectly exercise it via representation. But in truth, democratic majorities override the individual, so no individual is sovereign.

Still need more proof?

In America, however, the case is widely different. Our government is founded upon compact. Sovereignty was, and is, in the people.
[ Glass vs The Sloop Betsey, 3 Dall 6 (1794)]

"It will be admitted on all hands that with the exception of the powers granted to the states and the federal government, through the Constitutions, the people of the several states are unconditionally sovereign within their respective states."
Ohio L. Ins. & T. Co. v. Debolt, 16 How. 416, 14 L.Ed. 997

Conclusion: People are sovereign in the republican form of government.
But citizens are NOT sovereigns.

"... the term 'citizen,' in the United States, is analogous to the term "subject" in the common law; the change of phrase has resulted from the change in government. ... he who before was a "subject of the King" is now a citizen of the State."
State v. Manuel, 20 N.C. 144 (1838)

SUBJECT - One that owes allegiance to a sovereign and is governed by his laws.
...Men in free governments are subjects as well as citizens; as citizens they enjoy rights and franchises; as subjects they are bound to obey the laws. The term is little used, in this sense, in countries enjoying a republican form of government.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, p. 1425

Feel free to ask "your" public servant how and when American people (who were endowed with the birthright to be sovereign) became subject U.S. citizens at birth?
But do not be surprised when they do not answer.

"Something" was changed so that the government no longer owes allegiance to the sovereign people. Now the "subject citizens" owe allegiance to the sovereign government.

The Constitution, in Art.IV Sect. 4, clearly says that the United States shall guarantee a Republican form of Goverment to all the States.

It's simple - the supreme power lies in the people. The only democratic part of it is to vote for their representatives - which must govern by set laws.

People can not vote for their representatives to put into law that which is outside the scope of the already existing laws that are the framework of the legislature - their representatives. People can not change those laws except by Amendment to the Constitution.

Example - the federal government has no business legislating on how to educate or provides funds to educate our children - even if people vote for that to be the case - it is outside the scope of the Legislative powers.