Has socialism ever been successful? Examples, please? (borders, 9/11, illegals)

[steven_h]

Originally Posted by Grim Reader

You know, I really don't see that. Europe was a ruin after WW2, and has been catching up a little bit every decade since. And is doing quite well at the moment, economic troubles nonewithstanding.

The whole "you envy us" meme is pretty destructive. Its like "My kid is WONDERFUL! You are just saying he has problems because you are envious of how much better he is!"

Sometimes you need to take a realistic look at things. Honey, the kid is 15, weights 250 pounds, is deveoping type 2 diabetes already, and failing in his classes. The kid needs to shape up. Closing you eyes to thats is destroying the kid.

Honestly, I deal with people in the UK daily. The parent/distributor company of my company is based in Jersey and Blackpool. I've yet to talk to a single person espousing how good it is to be an Englishman these days. Suicide is on the rise, not for the typical teens and tweens, but for the middle aged. The state collects your paycheck and then pays you after taking what they want (need to perpetuate their negligent spending). Healthcare for anything involving surgery means a waiting list. I also love how the smallest of GDP's is compared the largest in the world. Gee, I wonder how the US became the largest GDP in the world. Now we are moving to a Euro style government (while Europe is moving away from it) and look how dismal we've become.

BTW: It is only because of the US that Europeans aren't all houseboys for German families.

[box_of_zip_disks]

Originally Posted by Turboblocke

BTW one fundamental difference between most European countries and the US is that they have the concept of a "loyal opposition". That's where the major party that is not in power still tries to cooperate with the ruling party for the good of the country.

Another fundamental difference is no European nation has a majority population half-filled with people willing to completely destroy their own standard of living to ensure minorities are never on equal footing in society. These two issues are related.

[RCCCB]

People need to care about how to make their own money rather than obsessing about how to access the money of their neighbors. Not doing your own thing for a profit for a good deal of the week is the weakness of socialism IMO.
I don't know of any socialism based societies that aren't collapsing around the world and the socialism within our system is what is killing our economy IMO.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by steven_h

Honestly, I deal with people in the UK daily. The parent/distributor company of my company is based in Jersey and Blackpool. I've yet to talk to a single person espousing how good it is to be an Englishman these days. Suicide is on the rise, not for the typical teens and tweens, but for the middle aged. The state collects your paycheck and then pays you after taking what they want (need to perpetuate their negligent spending). Healthcare for anything involving surgery means a waiting list. I also love how the smallest of GDP's is compared the largest in the world. Gee, I wonder how the US became the largest GDP in the world. Now we are moving to a Euro style government (while Europe is moving away from it) and look how dismal we've become.

BTW: It is only because of the US that Europeans aren't all houseboys for German families.

I have a sister who is a Brit. BIL recently retired though still consulting. She works at a do-gooder job.

She is a dual citizen as is their daughter. He has permanent resident status in the US.

They could move to the US at anytime if they chose. Instead they stay in the house they own on the high street in one of the small towns north of London.

They are obviously quite comfortable in either culture. They lived at least ten years altogether in the states and my sister of course grew up here.

So there is a clear cut vote that England is at least all right...

I would also note that the Russians played some small role in the downfall of the Germans.

[Hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by steven_h

Gee, I wonder how the US became the largest GDP in the world.

By existing while every other country's industrial base was decimated. What we've been seeing for the last few decades is merely the world returning to a more natural equilibrium.

At the matter at hand, this whole debate is worthless. All modern economies are mixed markets. The only debate is over what kind of a mix we should have. Counties like Germany and Japan who are known for their economic success in the latter half of the 20th century have economic controls that would make a lot of people's heads spin over here.

[wutitiz]

Norway seems to be a success story.
Nation & World | Oil-rich Norway guards its wealth | Seattle Times Newspaper

But they have been blessed with oil weath and a benevolent management thereof.

The Norwegian fund, however, is a model of transparency and enlightened Scandinavian management. It invests mainly in European and U.S. companies, but it is precluded from owning more than a 3 percent stake in any company in order not to unduly influence a company's business.
The fund is now worth about $350 billion, making it one of the largest pools of investment capital in the world. The Norwegians have, in effect, figured out how to transform a nonrenewable resource into a self-sustaining resource.
A few other countries with oil money have taken note, and Martin Skancke, who heads the Norwegian Finance Ministry's asset department, which oversees the fund, has been fielding queries from such places as East Timor and Bolivia.
"It's a lot easier when you have transparent institutions, an educated population and a long history of democracy with very little corruption," Skancke said.

But I'm not so sure this is a long term stable deal. What happens when the current generation of benevolent leaders retires?

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by wutitiz

Norway seems to be a success story.
Nation & World | Oil-rich Norway guards its wealth | Seattle Times Newspaper

But they have been blessed with oil weath and a benevolent management thereof.



But I'm not so sure this is a long term stable deal. What happens when the current generation of benevolent leaders retires?

Google Dark Lutherans, Norwegians.

The one thing you can count on above all else is that the Norwegians will never run out of benevolent leadership. They will run out of herring first.

[nzrugby]

Originally Posted by steven_h

Did someone forget to fill in those who were burning England last month? Or Spain, or France, or Greece...or...or...or and now the anarchy has spread to the US (though peacfully thank God). Let me know how that Eurozone bliss is doing when Greece defaults in a couple of months. Let me know how loyal that opposition remains when they have to swallow the European version of QE and a massive bank bailout. By the way, you need to blow your nose if your going to wave it around like that.

A European trying to describe the US oozes wishful thinking. You all hate us because you want to be us.

Well we Aussies/Kiwis certainly do not wish to be Americans.
But it is amusing that some Americans believe they should have the right because of their nationality to emigrate to Australia regardless if they do not have skills we need.
Hate Americans, hmm the word pity comes to mind at times.

[olecapt]

Originally Posted by nzrugby

Well we Aussies/Kiwis certainly do not wish to be Americans.
But it is amusing that some Americans believe they should have the right because of their nationality to emigrate to Australia regardless if they do not have skills we need.
Hate Americans, hmm the word pity comes to mind at times.

We Americans also feel bad when we have to reject an Aussie who believes he is entitled. Don't really notice the kiwis...not enough of them to matter.

[rogead]

No, and neither has capitalism.

Socialism is not monolithic. There are many kinds of socialists, ranging from ruthless dictators to democratically elected politicians. Even the dictators have had vastly differing results. Pol Pot was responsible for some of the worst atrocities in human history.

On the other hand, Castro, as much as many people love to hate him, raised the Cuban literacy rate from the mid-seventies (under Batista) to 100 percent. Cuban health care became the best in Latin America, as borne out by the country's mortality rate and life expectancy.

The prosperity gap in European Democratic Socialist countries is far less than the disparity existing in The US. Most of these countries would consider it unconscionable to allow their citizens to go without basic health care.

We even ignore our own "socialist" legacy--the idea that small children shouldn't be forced to work in dangerous factories for meager wages is not an American principle. It comes straight from Marx. In fact, workplace regulations we take for granted today--i.e. workplace safety, child labor laws, the eight hour day, overtime pay, etc--all come from the fights waged by socialists and anarchists in decades past.

Socialism, as Marx envisioned it; and capitalism, as Smith envisioned it are philosophical utopias. In and of themselves, these ideologies are neither right or wrong, nor true or false. As human beings, we have to work with the realities our existence presents to us. To that end, our species has tried to develop social and economic structures which balance freedom with egalitarianism---on the whole, we have failed miserably.