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And then there's Kennewick Man, who was of European ancestry who was here before Native Americans, so Europeans are just moving into a place they had already been for a while.
The Kennewick Man was not European, but rather Polynesian, and showed up several thousand years after Clovis Man. There is also evidence to suggest that Clovis Man did originate from Europe, and not Asia as originally believed.
My point was that just about the entire world knew of the existence of the "New World." It was only 15th century Christian Europe that was completely ignorant of its location at the time.
"WHEREAS it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour; and Whereas both Houfes of Congress have, by their joint committee, requefted me "to recommend to the people of the United States a DAY OF PUBLICK THANSGIVING and PRAYER, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to eftablifh a form of government for their safety and happiness:"
Definitely worth reading. Alas, I doubt any public school would be able to read this document of our first president in our schools today. Sad state of affairs.
Why? Why is it sad?
You can't thank your god?
YES! You can.
Can you teach your children to thank your god?
YES, you can.
Can you cram your god down the throats of other children?
No, you can't...especially not in a PUBLIC school.
You people can argue this 9 ways from Sunday but Columbus discovered America in the only important way.
Amerigo Vespucci, Polynesians, Asians crossing the land bridge in the Ice Age don’t matter.
What matters is Columbus got here. European figured out that was a good thing for them.... then poof The Declaration of Independence.
I know there are some wacked out goof balls and a hand full of native Americans that get all angry eyed about “America being stolen from the red man” and all that but guess what?
WE AINT GOING BACK!
And what’s more, if Columbus hadn’t showed up, the Aztecs would still be cutting sill beating hearts out of human bodies as a form of worship.
It's the left and their PC "sensitivities" that are doing away with holidays.
I think they've gone too far though in their attempt to make everyone happy all the time.
Yep, like these people:
"In the case of Halloween, many Muslims, some Jews, and mostevangelical Christians object to Halloween on religious grounds--and are making their views known."
As for the rest, I've never understood why Columbus was celebrated. I could see including him in an overall lesson on early explorers, but, he certainly doesn't need a 'day.'
Thanksgiving is another matter altogether, but, it is probably easier to jettison all of them than to pick and choose.
And, um, what exactly did the Native Americans here do?
Lie, cheat and steal.
The French were appalled by the constant wars of the various Great Lake tribes that they tried to mediate a peace. And why were those tribes at war constantly? To take slaves.
Slavery was alive and well in the Americas long before Europeans arrived.
Why do you think tribes helped Tyler fight the Shawnee? Because they were sick and tired of getting raided by the Shawnee.
The whole "Native American" thing is just revisionist propaganda. It's matter of National Unity. They are trying to paint a picture of something that never existed, namely, National Unity.
If you want to use "Native American" in the sense of "European" okay, I'll go along with that. Europeans consisted of various ethnic groups who fought all the time. Native Americans were no different, except that you have even more ethnic groups fighting all the time.
The only people who buy into the Edenesque version of of the Americas prior to 1492 are white hippies, uber-liberals, crystal-waving twinkes and "my great-grandmother was a Cherokee" wannabe Indians.
Myself, as an enrolled member of the Comanche Nation of Oklahoma, know exactly who we were and make no illusions about. I know not one Comanche who does.
Yes, we pushed the Plains Apache out of Texas. Yes, we warred with the Utes, Tonkawa, Wichita and just about everybody else in the area at one time or another. Yes, we raided for horses and captives. Yes we fought against the Spanish, Mexicans, Texans and ultimately Americans. We raided as far south a Monterrey, Mexico. Yes, we were ruthless and god help you if you were not killed in battle. It was far better to be killed than to be put into our hands as a captive. Of course, we could be pretty nice guys as well. However...
For the European and American who saw himself above all that, called the native "savages" and worthy of extinction either physically or culturally for their savagery, yet practiced the same things himself, (oh I don't know, like The Inquisition...a shining example of the higher qualities of European culture and civilization), African slavery, torture, all out warfare etc, etc, there was just a bit of self-deception and hypocrisy don't you think?
Add into the mix those politicians who signed treaties with "chiefs" knowing full-well that those "chiefs" did not have the right to speak for the whole Nation and only their band, yet used that as justification to commit warfare against other bands or even the same band (see the Sand Creek Massacre) is highly duplicitous for such a more highly evolved and enlightened people such as the non-savage European and his progeny. I can tell you that, we kept treaties so long as the other side did. Just ask the citizens of Frederickburgh, Texas.
And let's not forget the deliberate destruction of the buffalo herds, told to millions of school children as the "actions of indiscriminate hunters," when, in fact, it was a deliberate policy of Washington to destroy the food supply of the Plains Nations. It was that, which did in the Plains Nations and not the superiority of the white soldier or his weapons that ultimately subjegate our peoples. Yes, boys and girls, Washington DC PAID those hunters to do what they did.
And it should always be remembered how Indian children were taken from their families, placed into boarding schools, forbidden to speak their language, practice their religion, see their families all in attempt to destroy the cultures...and all of that going on well into the 20th Century with the forced adoptions going on until 1978. What was the saying back then? Oh yeah, Kill the Indian to Save the Man. Yes, we are so grateful to you for being here. Yeah, we pushed the Apaches out, but we never required them to become Comanches.
Lastly, there are the contemporary issues such as the BIA leasing the best farming and ranching land on Rosebud Reservation in South Dakota to white ranchers instead keeping them for the Lakota only so they can grow and raise their own good food. Nah, better to just give those guys some crappy commods and a few bucks....keeps them where they are. OR how about using reservation lands in Nevada for nuclear waste dumping? Well, there's only some Indians there, who cares? And, of course, there is the continuing conficscation of Indian lands such as the legal battle my Comanche Nation had to fight just two years ago against the Army taking COmanche land and doing what it wished with it.
All wonderful things that the Christian, enlightened, non-savage taibo did all for our benefit, of course. We know who and what we were, but the taibo does nothing but fool himself into thinkng he is justified. It astounds me that the descendents of the people who justified their actions via and attitude of racial, cultural or religious superioity now justifies it by saying that Indians were the same as he. Oh, the irony of it all!
Yeah, my ancestors did some nasty things, but the scope, scale and result of it cannot even compare to the institutionalized policies of the United States and it citizens particularly in those days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
And then there's Kennewick Man, who was of European ancestry who was here before Native Americans, so Europeans are just moving into a place they had already been for a while. They would have been considered "savages" as well.
BFD about Kennewick Man. Even if ancient Europeans came here and some indigenous tribes hava European genetics, that would not have stopped the European conquerors from treating them any differently than other tribes with different origins, so who cares really?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
I have never once said that tribal warfare, or any form of warfare is genocide.
I define genocide as the total extermination of an ethnic group, so no, I'm not one of the morons who claims the US invasion of Iraq was genocide.
Prior to the arrival of Europeans, there are at least 4 known ethnic groups totally eradicated from the face of the Earth by Native Americans. We know that from either the oral histories of the Native Americans who committed genocide, or from the oral histories of Native Americans who were aware that it had taken place, and also from archaeological evidence.
After Europeans arrived, there are at least three other groups who were eradicated from the face of the Earth, but not by Europeans -- by other Native Americans.
To be fair, there is substantial evidence that in one instance, it appears genocide may not have been the cause. Some have suggested disease not related to the arrival of the Europeans, however, that appears to be contradicted by other evidence.
The evidence suggests this group was isolated. Perhaps this tribe committed some kind of "sin" and was ostracized by all other tribal groups. No one traded with this group (archeological evidence), they did not inter-marry with other tribes, etc. and it seems they just died out naturally (if I recall they were located somewhere in the mountains or desert in southern California).
I honestly wish to see references on that. That is not the usual "SHOW ME A REFERENCE" internet cry. If there is something I do not know, I wish to learn about it. The reason I stated what I did is that I have heard people equate tribal warfare to genocide. I've heard it so many times that I assumed you were going there. My apologies as that apparently was not the case.
The radical right wing evangelical parents are the ones who tried to end Halloween at our school--it was "promoting devil worship." The kids were going to have a fall party with no costumes and no references to anything spooky--not even jack-o-lanterns--until our school board stepped in and said it was a dumb idea. The upset parents pulled their kids out to be homeschooled over it, and then things settled down.
I find this pretty funny. I went to private christian schools up until 8th grade, and not only did we always celebrate Halloween, but I was always a witch! LOL!
Some people know that a holiday is for fun and family, not for political agenda. Not everyone knows this, but some do. *shrug*
You people can argue this 9 ways from Sunday but Columbus discovered America in the only important way.
Amerigo Vespucci, Polynesians, Asians crossing the land bridge in the Ice Age don’t matter.
What matters is Columbus got here. European figured out that was a good thing for them.... then poof The Declaration of Independence.
I know there are some wacked out goof balls and a hand full of native Americans that get all angry eyed about “America being stolen from the red man” and all that but guess what?
WE AINT GOING BACK!
And what’s more, if Columbus hadn’t showed up, the Aztecs would still be cutting sill beating hearts out of human bodies as a form of worship.
Go Columbus! Down with idiots who hate him!!!!!
Indeed, Columbus will go down in history as being the LAST person to discover the New World. He was a joke among explorers of his day.
For the European and American who saw himself above all that, called the native "savages" and worthy of extinction either physically or culturally for their savagery, yet practiced the same things himself, (oh I don't know, like The Inquisition...a shining example of the higher qualities of European culture and civilization), African slavery, torture, all out warfare etc, etc, there was just a bit of self-deception and hypocrisy don't you think?
Do not forget that when those European nations were being conquored by the Romans, they were the ones considered to be the "barbarians."
We have a habit of demonizing what we do not understand or those who are different.
You're off topic with the Texas comment and illogical in your conclusion...no, I don't like zebras...(answering in kind)
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