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Old 04-10-2013, 03:38 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,769 posts, read 44,594,609 times
Reputation: 13621

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Yes. He was one of many, many British citizens in Hawaii and elsewhere in the US who, while present on our soil, are under the exclusive and absoluter jurisdiction of the United States.

And likewise, his son was born under the exclusive and absolute jurisdiction of the United States.
If that were true, the British Nationality Act of 1948 wouldn't apply to Obama. Alas for you, it does. The DNC already publicly admitted such. You can't lie and try to walk it back now.

 
Old 04-10-2013, 03:44 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,893 posts, read 16,049,604 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Those born in the U.S. to alien fathers even AFTER the 14th Amendment were determined by Secretaries of State according to law to NOT be U.S. citizens, except for certain cases involving those of Chinese descent whose parents were permanently domiciled in the U.S.
You are misrepresenting diplomatic judgements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
English common law in the U.S.?
Yes. They are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
NOT in regards to citizenship.
Lyman Trumbull says you are wrong.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,893 posts, read 16,049,604 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
If that were true, the British Nationality Act of 1948 wouldn't apply to Obama.
Sure it would. Why wouldn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Alas for you, it does. The DNC already publicly admitted such. You can't lie and try to walk it back now.
The DNC said exactly nothing about the jurisdiction under which Obama was born.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 03:46 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,769 posts, read 44,594,609 times
Reputation: 13621
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Quote:
The jurisdiction of the nation within its own territory is necessarily exclusive and absolute. It is susceptible of no limitation not imposed by itself. Any restriction upon it, deriving validity from an external source, would imply a diminution of its sovereignty to the extent of the restriction, and an investment of that sovereignty to the same extent in that power which could impose such restriction.
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 10: The Schooner Exchange v. McFaddon

And likewise, his son was born under the exclusive and absolute jurisdiction of the United States.
Have you even thought through what you're trying to claim here? If that obiter dictum were to actually be legal precedent (it ISN'T), every child born abroad to even two U.S. citizen parents would NOT be U.S. citizens unless they went through the immigration and naturalization process.

We already know such is NOT the case.

It is in fact true that the U.S. has jurisdiction over those born abroad to U.S. citizens. Likewise, the U.K. had jurisdiction over Obama at the time of his birth.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 03:46 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,808,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Exactly my point. Slavery wouldn't be possible if the U.S. did in fact observe and practice English common law in regards to birthright citizenship. If English common law had actually been practiced in the U.S. as you so erroneously claim , everyone born in the U.S. including the children of slaves would be U.S. citizens. It's quite clear that such was NOT the case. Both with slaves AND freemen. The U.S. clearly DIDN'T observe English common law in regards to birthright citizenship. Birthright citizenship didn't even exist at the federal level until 1866, at which time one was required to be born in the U.S. and not subject to any foreign power in order to be a U.S. citizen at birth.
You're being silly, now. Numerous British holdings had slaves, and didn't afford them citizenship status. Jamaica, for instance. If Great Britain itself had slaves that existed outside citizenship laws, then British colonies that separated from Great Britain could certainly have legally separated slaves from citizenship.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,893 posts, read 16,049,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Have you even thought through what you're trying to claim here?
Of course I have. That's why I'm not as confused as you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
If that obiter dictum were to actually be legal precedent (it ISN'T), every child born abroad to even two U.S. citizen parents would NOT be U.S. citizens unless they went through the immigration and naturalization process.
Ignoring that it's not dicta , I merely point you to 8 USC § 1401 - Nationals and citizens of United States at birth | Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality again.

We can grant citizenship to anybody we want, regardless of whether we have jurisdiction over them or not.

In the same way you have no idea what "permanent domicile" means, you have no idea what "jurisdiction" means. That's no surprise, since the terms are very, very closely related.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 03:53 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,769 posts, read 44,594,609 times
Reputation: 13621
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
You are misrepresenting diplomatic judgements.
No, I am not. If you disagree, cite a federal law that specifically indicates that the State Dept can ignore U.S. law in regards to citizenship.
Quote:
Lyman Trumbull says you are wrong.
Lynn Trumbull has this to say after the statement to which you refer:
Quote:
"We both agreed that after the abolition of slavery everybody born in and subject to the jurisdiction of the United States was a citizen of the United States."

Last edited by InformedConsent; 04-10-2013 at 04:15 PM..
 
Old 04-10-2013, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,893 posts, read 16,049,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
No, I am not.
Yes you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
If you disagree, cite a federal law that specifically indicates that the State Dept can ignore U.S. law in regards to citizenship.
Why would there have to be a law for me to disagree that you are misrepresenting diplomatic decisions? That's just stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Lynn Trumbull has this to say after the statement to which you refer:
Yes he did. He agreed with me completely regarding how the common law treated slaves. He even said so.

Your point?
 
Old 04-10-2013, 03:57 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,769 posts, read 44,594,609 times
Reputation: 13621
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Sure it would. Why wouldn't it?
You're claiming only the U.S. had jurisdiction. If that were true, Obama's status wouldn't have been governed by the British Nationality Act of 1948 - a LAW. Obama WAS, in fact, governed by that LAW. Foreign jurisdiction. Plain and simple.
Quote:
The DNC said exactly nothing about the jurisdiction under which Obama was born.
They admitted such when they stated Obama was governed by the British Nationality Act of 1948.
 
Old 04-10-2013, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,893 posts, read 16,049,604 times
Reputation: 3954
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
You're claiming only the U.S. had jurisdiction.
Of course. We know that to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
If that were true, Obama's status wouldn't have been governed by the British Nationality Act of 1948 - a LAW.

Sure it would. The UK is a sovereign nation. They can grant their citizenship to anybody they want, regardless of whose jurisdiction they are under.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Obama WAS, in fact, governed by that LAW.
Only his British citizenship was governed under that law. Who else's law would govern British citizenship but Britain's? Burkina Faso?

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
Foreign jurisdiction. Plain and simple.
Like I said... you have no idea what jurisdiction means. Plain and simple.
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