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Old 10-30-2011, 08:56 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,800 posts, read 44,610,756 times
Reputation: 13625

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrecking ball View Post
why not?
There's no legitimate claim.

Quote:
i don't. it's not uncommon at all, it's just not universal. not all countries recognize jus sanguinis ( most do but not all ). those that do may have restrictions on acknowledging citizenship ( father only, mother only, age of parent... ). so again, it puts restrictions on US presidential eligibility at the whims of a foreign government.
Restrictions because of conflicting allegiances. Perfectly understandable. Perhaps the parents should have thought about that before having dual citizen children. Personal responsibility applies here.
Quote:
then we have the issue of countries that recognize citizenship of a child even if the parents have naturalized as US citizens
Naturalized U.S. citizens must take an oath renouncing and abjuring any and all foreign allegiances. That's why their U.S.-born children are NBCs.

Naturalization Oath:
Quote:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."
Alternatively, their grandchildren (U.S.-born children of U.S.-born adults) would be eligible.
Quote:
...or countries that recognize citizenship thru multiple generations. do you consider these children ineligible?
Those require an intentional application process. Such persons are not automatically dual citizens at birth.

 
Old 10-30-2011, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Northern CA
12,770 posts, read 11,543,579 times
Reputation: 4262
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrecking ball View Post
yea but......... you got my response wrong.
I don't thinks so. You and I both know that ain't gonna happen.
Let's not play these what if games, it's hard enough trying to track what is and what was.
 
Old 10-30-2011, 09:09 PM
 
26,554 posts, read 14,400,421 times
Reputation: 7412
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
There's no legitimate claim.
so? that still doesn't stop the individual country from granting citizenship.

Quote:
Naturalized U.S. citizens must take an oath renouncing and abjuring any and all foreign allegiances.
yep. not all countries accept the oath as a renunciation of citizenship nor does it affect the status of the children/grandchild/multi's citizenship.
 
Old 10-30-2011, 09:14 PM
 
26,554 posts, read 14,400,421 times
Reputation: 7412
"Although naturalizing citizens are required to undertake an oath renouncing previous allegiances, the oath has never been enforced to require the actual termination of original citizenship.[25]"

United States nationality law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Old 10-30-2011, 09:26 PM
 
46,891 posts, read 25,866,768 times
Reputation: 29355
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
No, they couldn't arbitrarily force their citizenship on anyone at random. No country is likely to recognize that kind of citizenship claim.
Really? You cite the State Department's commitment to overseas citizenship when it fits you, but all of a sudden that strict interpretation - dissipates?

Quote:
In contrast, why would any of you think it's at all unusual for a parent to pass on their own citizenship to their children?
Nobody thinks that. We're pointing out that dual citizenship at birth doesn't disqualify US citizen from being "natural born".
 
Old 10-30-2011, 09:27 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,800 posts, read 44,610,756 times
Reputation: 13625
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrecking ball View Post
so? that still doesn't stop the individual country from granting citizenship.
How can it grant citizenship to someone who has no direct connection to the country, has never been there, and will never go there? Who would recognize such a claim?
Quote:
yep. not all countries accept the oath as a renunciation of citizenship
The U.S. accepts the renunciation and abjuration of any and all foreign allegiances when one takes the Naturalization Oath. That's why they naturalize such persons as U.S. citizens after the oath is spoken and sworn to.
Quote:
...nor does it affect the status of the children/grandchild/multi's citizenship.
We've already established that such children and grandchildren have to intentionally apply for foreign citizenship in such cases. It is not automatically granted. If they don't want foreign citizenship, then they simply don't apply.
 
Old 10-30-2011, 09:31 PM
 
46,891 posts, read 25,866,768 times
Reputation: 29355
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Naturalized U.S. citizens must take an oath renouncing and abjuring any and all foreign allegiances. That's why their U.S.-born children are NBCs.
Oh, you're not thinking this through at all. People can take that oath all day long and still be dual citizens. Syria, for instance, simply does not accept the idea that someone can resign their citizenship. See, the US State Department (and you thoughtfully provided the citation, thanks most kindly) agrees that the US can't decide who's a citizen of a foreign country.
 
Old 10-30-2011, 09:34 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,800 posts, read 44,610,756 times
Reputation: 13625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Really? You cite the State Department's commitment to overseas citizenship when it fits you, but all of a sudden that strict interpretation - dissipates?
When there's no legitimate claim, yes. Prove that any country arbitrarily claims random persons abroad with no connection to the country whatsoever as its citizens.
Quote:
We're pointing out that dual citizenship at birth doesn't disqualify US citizen from being "natural born".
Yes, it does. There's plenty of proof cited in this thread. Not the least of which is at least two SCOTUS decisions, Minor v. Happersett and Wong Kim Ark (cites M v. H).
 
Old 10-30-2011, 09:35 PM
 
46,891 posts, read 25,866,768 times
Reputation: 29355
Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
We've already established that such children and grandchildren have to intentionally apply for foreign citizenship in such cases. It is not automatically granted. If they don't want foreign citizenship, then they simply don't apply.
Now you're just making stuff up. If Obama Senior had been a dual US/UK citizen, Obama would still have had UK citizenship at birth, as far as the UK was concerned. And as your citation points out, the US State Department is quite happy to go with the UK's rulings in these matters.

How would someone intentionally apply at birth?
 
Old 10-30-2011, 09:41 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,800 posts, read 44,610,756 times
Reputation: 13625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Oh, you're not thinking this through at all. People can take that oath all day long and still be dual citizens. Syria, for instance, simply does not accept the idea that someone can resign their citizenship.
Doesn't change the fact that the Naturalizing U.S. citizen renounced and abjured any and all allegiance to Syria, swore allegiance to the U.S., and was made a U.S. citizen. As such, two such persons could bear a child in the U.S. and that child would be a Constitutional NBC.

None of that applied to Obama. His father was a foreign citizen when Obama was born. Obama was thus born a foreign citizen.
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