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Old 10-28-2011, 01:57 PM
 
Location: A great city, by a Great Lake!
15,896 posts, read 11,985,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
I see that very few really know what being a libertarian is all about. It doesn't include trusting in only local governments, because, for the most part ALL governments are intrusive, ineffective, and inefficient. It doesn't mean allowing lawlessness and rampant criminal acts. It doesn't mean trusting government bureaucrats to make determinations about products over the product manufacturers who have a monetary stake in making safe products. It doesn't mean forcibly taking resources from other individuals to pay for the needs of others. Libertarianism is about allowing the individual to make choices about his/her own property and acting upon those choices as long as they do not violate the property rights of others.

No I think I got it Amazon. This is where personal responsibility comes into play. If I own a business, and my business screws up the environment, and pollutes the drinking water of those that live around me, then it's on me to accept the responsibility and accept the consequences! And that is where the government should step in, because others rights have been violated.
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:59 PM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,692,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1brownsfan View Post
No I think I got it Amazon. This is where personal responsibility comes into play. If I own a business, and my business screws up the environment, and pollutes the drinking water of those that live around me, then it's on me to accept the responsibility and accept the consequences! And that is where the government should step in, because others rights have been violated.
Not necessarily government, but some type of arbitrator who would require compensation be paid by the offender.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:04 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 37,040,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Not necessarily government, but some type of arbitrator who would require compensation be paid by the offender.
And what force can such an arbitrator bring upon polluter to a. accept the amount of compensations to be paid, b. paying the amount owed, or c. taking the necessary steps to wring out such a payment when the polluter finds himself without enough liquidity do to so?
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:04 PM
 
Location: A great city, by a Great Lake!
15,896 posts, read 11,985,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Not necessarily government, but some type of arbitrator who would require compensation be paid by the offender.

Fair enough.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:47 PM
 
46,946 posts, read 25,979,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1brownsfan View Post
No I think I got it Amazon. This is where personal responsibility comes into play. If I own a business, and my business screws up the environment, and pollutes the drinking water of those that live around me, then it's on me to accept the responsibility and accept the consequences! And that is where the government should step in, because others rights have been violated.
It's a bit after-the-fact, though, isn't it? And it doesn't take into account that people may have a different risk assessment than that of their (undoubtedly unintended) victims.

Say somebody's drilling for oil in the Gulf of Mexico. They obviously have to make a cost/benefit decision on stuff like blowout preventers, but their investment is of the high-risk/high-reward type, so they bought one off Craigslist. It has a known failure rate 10%, but they're comfortable with that risk.

The problem is: Once the blowout happens, the drilling operation, even if they were perfectly willing, simply won't be able to cover the cost of the cleanup. Should we abstain from interfering with their drilling operation because they feel willing to take a 10% chance of bankruptcy for a 90% chance of a better ROI? I say no. (Hell no, actually.)

Nobody would run that risk? Chinese companies added melamine to gluten to boost the protein content. They gambled it would be OK (risk assessment again), yet it poisoned thousands of animals. Do you think a pet owner stands a snowball's chance in hell to recoup anything from an obscure Chinese company that's folded in the meantime?

I'm certain that you're a stand-up guy and would do your utmost to offer relief to anyone you unwittingly harmed, but any system works great if you can assume that all the actors are stand-up guys.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:51 PM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,692,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
It's a bit after-the-fact, though, isn't it?

Say somebody's drilling for oil in the Gulf of Mexico. They obviously have to make a cost/benefit decision on stuff like blowout preventers, but their investors are of the high-risk/high-reward type, so they bought one off Craigslist. It has a known failure rate 10%, but they're comfortable with that risk.

The problem is: Once the blowout happens, the drilling operation, even if they were perfectly willing, simply won't be able to cover the cost of the cleanup. Should we abstain from interfering with their drilling operation because they feel willing to take a 10% chance of bankruptcy for a 90% chance of a better ROI? I say no. (Hell no, actually.)
As we saw in the Gulf Oil Spill fiasco, the government isn't much better (if any) at increasing these odds. And, in many cases, the chance of failure is increased because of regulatory concerns.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,864 posts, read 4,978,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooperkat View Post
Libertarians are scoffed at for being anti-socialist.

Democrats hate Libertarians. How dare Libertarians take responsibility for their own lives.
Oh Republicans hate libertarians too, as libertarians don't want to be play world police or morality cop anymore.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Missouri
4,272 posts, read 3,787,082 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1brownsfan View Post
No I think I got it Amazon. This is where personal responsibility comes into play. If I own a business, and my business screws up the environment, and pollutes the drinking water of those that live around me, then it's on me to accept the responsibility and accept the consequences! And that is where the government should step in, because others rights have been violated.
The impending lawsuits would cost everyone involved a hell of a lot of money. A lot more money than it would cost to stick to a government regulation that says "thou shalt not pollute thy neighbor's water." I think any industry in this country believes that true. It's when regulation gets excessive or inconsistent that it creates concern in an industry.

There are Libertarians that believe in limited regulation, but there are many who believe in no regulation, which I think is wrong-headed.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:55 PM
 
46,946 posts, read 25,979,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Not necessarily government, but some type of arbitrator who would require compensation be paid by the offender.
Enforced how?
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:01 PM
 
Location: A great city, by a Great Lake!
15,896 posts, read 11,985,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geofra View Post
The impending lawsuits would cost everyone involved a hell of a lot of money. A lot more money than it would cost to stick to a government regulation that says "thou shalt not pollute thy neighbor's water." I think any industry in this country believes that true. It's when regulation gets excessive or inconsistent that it creates concern in an industry.

There are Libertarians that believe in limited regulation, but there are many who believe in no regulation, which I think is wrong-headed.

And I didn't say I believe in no regulation. I believe in limited, which is why I said I believe we need checks and balances. What we're seeing in this country nowadays is overkill!
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