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Excuses, excuses. According to this post, the racism of white northerners is acceptable, because it is the fault of blacks. However the racism of white southerners is not acceptable, because of what? Because of a fundamental prejudice on the part of the poster. The hypocrisy of this argument is nauseating.
The sad thing is, many Americans actually believe this nonsense that racism in the south is "taught", and that racism elsewhere is "learned".
Nice try. But your desperate attempts to find something to criticize in my response does not detract from its validity and thrust. The south and the people who identify with it and its history, will always be extraordinarily sensitive because of its shameful past, continued battle with warped racial perceptions and misconceptions, and hollow attempts to appear progressive in modern times. I would classify an entire region that voted for the idiot Dubya as Regressive.
Also, how the hell do you know what "most Americans" believe? What did you do? Go door-to-door talking to most Americans and take a survey? Gitthef---outtahere!
Fairfaxilian, thanks for our extensive reply. Race relations unfortunately are still such a big deal in this country. My desire to just be seen as an American before any racial or ethnic thing may sound naive to many of all races, but in the end it was what Dr. King was dreaming of. And we should all work together as Americans to make this not a dream, but a reality. As for AA, my African American friends tend to not support it because there is a general perception (not saying its justified or right) by people of all other races that they only got into college because of it when I know many of them truly deserved to be there. Granted, none of them grew up in tough areas or were poor but they were as capable and intelligent as my friends of any other race.
As for the Confederate flag and regional differences, like I posted here in several threads with what I've witnessed myself, a lot of it has to do with Southerners feeling their culture and lifestyle is being threatened, especially as northern transplants (and illegal aliens) push into their states and homelands.
For me and my friends who wave the flag, and the many more who don't, the South and the Midwest represent the "real America"...I know this term offends some people so I guess the "typical America". At least its the image of America we like to see in ourselves. Like watch the music video for "Sweet Southern Comfort" by Buddy Jewell and compare it with images from hip hop or Britney Spears or Hillary Duff videos. More and more of this old down-home kind of life is being lost.
Farms are replaced by subdivisions, the friendly drawl of the South replaced by the uppity accents of New York and New England, just oozing with arrogance and pomposity. A lot of Southerners do feel their way of life threatened by the changes that have taken place in the South in the past few decades. To be honest, there is a lot worth missing about the old South, everything except the racial part. No, Jim crow and slavery are indefensible and are a stain on American history, but that does not mean nothing about the south or its past is worth preserving.
So back to my original point in my first post on this thread, what matters is the intent of the person waving that Confederate flag. Not everyone waves it because they think non-white people should be segregated or that blacks are inherently inferior to whites. Even as a non-white person I can identify with the loss of regional idenitity in the South and in many areas outside the Northeast and California. In the next 10 years, the "typical America" might well change from the America of small friendly towns, rolling farmlands, open ranches, big sky sunsets, cowboy hats, county fairs, rodeos, roadside diners, Friday night football games, lemonade stands, honky tonk bars like it is today....to the America of McMansons, mega-malls, hip hop music, heavy metal, lonely urban apartments, fast food, illegal immigrants, gang warfare, subdivisions that seems to be gaining the upper hand.
Socailly this is just a very hard time in our nation's history (aside from Iraq, terrorism and all the politics) and people just want to hang on to whatever they can, to do anything to have their voice heard as their way of life is taken from them. So I can understand why some of my friends from rural Maryland, only 30 miles south of the Mason-Dixon Line would take those Confederate flags to college and put it in their windows. That flag is the ONLY thing that the locals can fly that the newcomers and transplants cannot identify with. Its one of the thing that holds the old-timers together, at least when they are pitted against the transplants/settlers from more northern locales. It represents to them not the way of life of 1840s slave labor plantations but the lifestyles and values of the true America, the America that is sadly losing out year after year as time "progresses". Besides the flag, actually there is also country music which is seen as a symbol of rejection of the values/lifestyles/culture the Northern transplants try to impose on Southern natives.
And Maryland is still a border state. Sadly my part is clearly Northern. The parts with a southern flavor still fly the Confederate flag. Historically, Maryland would have seceded into the Confederacy if Lincoln did not place many pro-Confederate members of the state legislature under arrest and preventing a vote of secession in Annapolis. In the DC and Baltimore and Annapolis areas though, Confederate flags are hardly seen at all.
Well except on my friend's dorm window in College Park and the rooms of people from rural Maryland LOL!
Actually, in the more urban areas here people don't even fly the US flag on their cars too much, ever since post 9-11 patriotism gone out of fashion. Well, liberals, what can you say eh?
Excuses, excuses. According to this post, the racism of white northerners is acceptable, because it is the fault of blacks. However the racism of white southerners is not acceptable, because of what? Because of a fundamental prejudice on the part of the poster. The hypocrisy of this argument is nauseating.
The sad thing is, many Americans actually believe this nonsense that racism in the south is "taught", and that racism elsewhere is "learned".
You are right on target, anonymous. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the poster you are directing these comments toward are undoubtably of the type who fancy themselves as morally-superior, enlightened, tolerant, individuals. However, going by personal experience with the breed, and by the posts presented, they are usually extremely intolerant of those who disagree with them, incredibly biased in their own right, and generally just extremely supercillious and personally disagreeable people. Regardless though, the hatred of the South seems almost pathological. And the refusal to consider anything that goes against the thesis that its faults and history are no worse than those which existed (past and present) in other parts of the country is every bit as closed-minded and delusionary as what he accuses others of.
So really, as the old saying goes, why bother to wrestle with pig? You get both get dirty, but the pig likes it.
Ugh. This is hopeless. Just like the Confederacy was.
You all keep believing what you want, using Wikipedia to the prove your "points". I get the point already, the Confederacy was great!
No, Steve, I think what you are getting frustrated about is that you are likely hearing facts about conditions as they existed up north concerning the plight of blacks, which are new to you and you don't really want to deal with. It is much easier to believe that the South was a horrid netherworld which other parts of the country could feel superior to. Not because there was good reason, but because the "sins" in other regions were glossed over in their own history books.
Here is another fact to chew on. When the Civil Rights Movement went into the northern states, the reaction caused a rather astounded Dr. Martin Luthur King to state something like "If you want to teach a white Southerner how to hate, just send him to Chicago." Even seen the documentary "Eyes on the Prize?" Andrew Young said something in it which kind of elaborated on this observation. He noted that he was MUCH more afraid for his safety when in the North than in the South. As he explained it, the violence commited in the South was generally by small groups of the lower classes. On the other hand, he said, marches in the North were greeted by whole neighborhoods coming out to curse and throw projectiles.
And during the busing controversy if the early 70's? One would be hard-pressed to find greater examples of hypocricy than among many northern liberals and politicians. So long as the courts were only ruling against "de jure" (i.e. Jim Crow) type segregation in the schools, it was fine. But once they began to move against "de-facto" (as existed in the North), suddenly mouths which had supported every federal intervention when the South was the target, went into reverse as it moved into their backyards. Many fled to the suburbs and stuck their own kids in private schools, and violent resistance in South Boston and Pontiac, Michigan was as bad if not much words, than any encoutered in the South.
By the way, just as a matter of historical clarity, the "Stars and Bars" you mention is not the Confederate Battle Flag which is being discussed. In fact, the latter was never officially adopted by the Confederate government. Rather, it was a banner carried by the soldiers in the field, and was originally designed because of the true Stars and Bars (the first National Flag of the CSA) intentional resemblence to the United States Flag, which made it difficult
to distingush, causing confusion in the smoke and clutter of battle.
There are many groups in the U.S. that have thrived outside of the mainstream. The Amish, the mormons, Native Americans more or less, hippie communes, religious sects, and other groups. The south had the same option unless there is something I'm missing but they chose war and its deadly consequences. That said I find nothing wrong with the flag waving. To be proud of your background whatever it may be is something I hold near and dear to my heart.
However, to say that the south was the only area where blacks were discriminated against is to turn a blind eye to history and that's what many are guilty of...they paint the south with the racist brush and forget the paint drips on them as well. Liz
Noone ever said that. We've all pointed out the fact that the northern states did not treat blacks nicely, arent you reading the replies? However, comparing the treatment of blacks in the south vs. the north is hilarious. Im sick of seeing pro-Confederate folks try and make the south seem like they were no different than the north.
No, Steve, I think what you are getting frustrated about is that you are likely hearing facts about conditions as they existed up north concerning the plight of blacks, which are new to you and you don't really want to deal with.
Absolutely not. I was well aware of how blacks were treated in the north, thank you very much (through extensive research in my younger years). I think all of us have stated, at one point or another, that we KNOW the blacks werent treated properly up north. I think we can all agree that they were treated MUCH better in the north than they were in the south. All the points you bring up (ie that northern states didnt allow blacks to vote) are valid, but are pale in comparison to how the south treated them. Everytime I mention that, everyone dodges the bullet and never responds. Wonder why.
Im finding my way out of this discussion, and am leaving with this quote from the movie "Gods and Generals" (about the Civil War). This is a quote from Jeff Daniels, and a quote that I think is one of the best of all times. Im leaving this here because I agree 100% with what he said, and Im hoping many of you will agree too. Enjoy.
THIS IS FROM A UNION STANDPOINT
Come outside. I want to...
I want to show you something.
All these thousands of men.
Many of them not much more than boys.
Each one of them some mother's son.
Some sister's brother.
Some daughter's father.
Each one of them a whole person, loved
and cherished in some home far away.
Many of them will never return.
An army is power.
Its entire purpose is to coerce others.
Now, this kind of power cannot be used
carelessly or recklessly.
This kind of power can do great harm.
We have seen more suffering
than any man should ever see...
...and if there is going to be an end to it,
it must be an end that justifies the cost.
Now, somewhere out there
is the Confederate Army.
They claim they are fighting
for their independence, for their freedom.
Now, I cannot question their integrity.
I believe they are wrong,
but I cannot question it.
But I do question a system
that defends its own freedom...
...while it denies it to others.
To an entire race of men.
I will admit it, Tom, war is a scourge.
But so is slavery.
It is the systematic coercion
of one group of men over another.
It has been around since
the book of Genesis.
It exists in every corner of the world.
But that's no excuse for us
to tolerate it here...
...when we find it right before
our very eyes, in our own country.
That said I find nothing wrong with the flag waving. To be proud of your background whatever it may be is something I hold near and dear to my heart.
Two issues:
(1) Probably about 1/3 of the people who do wave the Confederate flag have no "background" associated with it. Their families transplanted down here from the North and then settled in and adopted this culture.
(2) How is a 5-year old Confederacy a "background" or "culture"? Can someone explain that? I could see if the Confederacy was a 100 year old thing, but it's not. It's a failed government that couldn't sustain itself and lost a war in doing so. So what exactly is being celebrated with this flag?
Look, if folks want to wave the Confederate flag on their yard or car, go for it. I don't care. I take issue though when tax dollars go to waving it on a state capitol building, though. Doing so is a slap in the face of the US flag and defies the unity of this country.
As for the Confederate flag and regional differences, like I posted here in several threads with what I've witnessed myself, a lot of it has to do with Southerners feeling their culture and lifestyle is being threatened, especially as northern transplants (and illegal aliens) push into their states and homelands.
It's funny how this seems the case, yet these proud Southerners don't seem too proud to accept the federal dollars and benefits generated by those "Northerners."
The same is true here in Atlanta - I cannot believe the immense hatred I hear from rural Georgians about the city of Atlanta. They feel it's a "sellout" to the "Yankees." Part of this then translates into state policies that hinder Atlanta's potential. Here's a thought then - divorce all revenues brought in through and from Atlanta and its metro area from the rest of the state. Have your state legislators from the rural Georgia counties refuse to take in these monies and rely on their own local businesses whatever they may be for sustainability. Boy, I bet there will be much different talk then.
It's all rhetoric and so hypocritical.
Quote:
For me and my friends who wave the flag, and the many more who don't, the South and the Midwest represent the "real America"...I know this term offends some people so I guess the "typical America". At least its the image of America we like to see in ourselves. Like watch the music video for "Sweet Southern Comfort" by Buddy Jewell and compare it with images from hip hop or Britney Spears or Hillary Duff videos. More and more of this old down-home kind of life is being lost.
Farms are replaced by subdivisions, the friendly drawl of the South replaced by the uppity accents of New York and New England, just oozing with arrogance and pomposity. A lot of Southerners do feel their way of life threatened by the changes that have taken place in the South in the past few decades. To be honest, there is a lot worth missing about the old South, everything except the racial part. No, Jim crow and slavery are indefensible and are a stain on American history, but that does not mean nothing about the south or its past is worth preserving.
Preservation is one thing. But calling the South and Midwest the "real" or "typical" America is downright ignorant. Again, the immense wealth and benefits given by and given to others by this nation come from modernization. You can't have your cake and it eat it too. You can't go out there and be all patriotic unlike those "liberals" (again, another completely ignorant statement - those who don't agree with policies in Washington are unpatriotic and wish to see America fail. How narrowminded and biased.) and then turn around and say "But only the rural down-home areas should be the real America." What do you want here? There are prices to pay for the luxuries and rights of being an American citizen. You want America to be the 1850s America but have the 2007 power and prestige? It just isn't going to happen. Wake up and realize the costs and benefits of this way of thinking. That's the problem - too much narrow-mindedness and not enough actual thinking. That isn't meant as a personal insult, but more of a "look at the big picture" comment.
Quote:
And Maryland is still a border state. Sadly my part is clearly Northern.
Again, "sadly Northern"? Are you a uniter or a divider? Isn't this what conservatives accuse liberals of? Dividing the nation instead of standing behind it? Do you support America or not? If you do, then we are ALL Americans and that means recognizing your fellow Americans in Atlanta, Charlotte, Jackson, and Birmingham as well as those in Boston, Chicago, Detroit, and San Francisco.
Quote:
Actually, in the more urban areas here people don't even fly the US flag on their cars too much, ever since post 9-11 patriotism gone out of fashion. Well, liberals, what can you say eh?
Since when is flying the U.S. flag a prerequisite for being patriotic? If I don't fly one, then I hate my country? Please. If anything, flying the Confederate flag, a symbol of division, alongside the American flag, a symbol of unity and power, is a complete slap in the face for all Americans, and I for one am disgusted by it.
Bottom line - stop dividing and start uniting. This isn't a black vs. white, liberal vs. conservative, Northern vs. Southern issue - it's an issue of having a unified America. And waving flags of yesteryear of governments who were against the unity of the states as it is today is backwards and very unpatriotic.
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