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Old 11-23-2011, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,167,257 times
Reputation: 35920

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
The economy didn't improve much until after the war ended. What is the difference between unable to purchase products because you are out of work and unable to purchase products because there are so few available?

We got out of the mini depression of 1920 in two years time because government stayed out for the most part and market corrections were allowed to occur.

Mises told us exactly what to expect in the 1920's.
"“A great crash is coming, and I don't want my name in any way connected with it.” So said economist Ludwig von Mises when an Austrian bank offered him a job in 1929. The bank, one of Europe's biggest, collapsed in 1931."

Easy money and government spending causes the boom and bust cycles. That much is obvious. It caused the dotcom bubble and it caused the housing crisis. It is causing the cost of obtaining a college degree to sky rocket.
Yeah, we should have let people starve and/or die of exposure b/c they were homeless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveshiscountry View Post
Who said a crystal ball was used? Information is knowledge. How many people at the time of FDRs depression had access to information compared to today? Besides people like Mises and others like him who had that knowledge?

People love to follow the status quo and not do their own research now. Think of how bad it was back then when information was much harder to get.
FDR was a control freak plain and simple. Another king who thought he knew how to run others lives better than they did. He took advantage of a weak and desperate people. No wonder my parents always told me to save for a rainy day. People make desperate decisions in desperate times.
FDR took money out of the efficient private sector and gave it to the inefficient government. At least he spent it on the infra structure.
You need a crystal ball to predict "what would have happened if". NO ONE can say with any certainty what WOULD have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
So, the WPA was no good because your parent's toilet was built wrong? The Triborough Bridge was one of those projects and it's still used today, 80 yrs. later.

They also built:
Doubleday Field in Cooperstown, New York
Camp David, Maryland
Dealey Plaza, Texas
LaGuardia Airport, New York

to name a few.
As I said earlier, Louisville Middle School, Colorado
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:10 PM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,828,510 times
Reputation: 9383
Quote:
Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas View Post
GDP had recovered well before that, as had many other economic factors. Unemployment might have reached single digits as early as 1938 or 1939, except for FDR's pledge to control deficits in 1937 (sounds familiar). Spending cuts caused employment to go back up again because the private sector employment had not recovered (also sounds familiar, and perhaps more familiar if more cuts go through).
Bill Clinton and his cutting of spending dispute your assumptions.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:17 PM
 
28,164 posts, read 25,155,697 times
Reputation: 16664
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal View Post
Crack a non-revisionist history book or economics book OP!

The Free Market: The New Deal Debunked
Oh brother. That's a real fine piece of objective research right there.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:26 PM
 
28,164 posts, read 25,155,697 times
Reputation: 16664
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
So, the WPA was no good because your parent's toilet was built wrong? The Triborough Bridge was one of those projects and it's still used today, 80 yrs. later.

They also built:
Doubleday Field in Cooperstown, New York
Camp David, Maryland
Dealey Plaza, Texas
LaGuardia Airport, New York

to name a few.
Do you mind if I add a few?

The Golden Gate Bridge
Mississippi River Locks
Pittsburgh International Airport
Great Smoky Mountains National Park
Oregon State Library
Grand Canyon Caverns
Lowry Air Force Base
The USPS office, Courthouse and Federal Office Building in Oklahoma City, OK
Kearney Air Force Base
Lincoln Tunnel in New Jersey
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,864 posts, read 4,953,811 times
Reputation: 4207
Quote:
Roosevelt's revolution began with his inaugural address, which left no doubt about his intentions to seize the moment and harness it to his purposes. Best remembered for its patently false line that "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself," it also called for extraordinary emergency governmental powers.
The day after FDR took the oath of office, he issued a proclamation calling Congress into a special session. Before it met, he proclaimed a national banking holiday--an action he had refused to endorse when Hoover suggested it three days earlier.
Invoking the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, Roosevelt declared that "all banking transactions shall be suspended." Banks were permitted to reopen only after case-by-case inspection and approval by the government, a procedure that dragged on for months. This action heightened the public's sense of crisis and allowed him to ignore traditional restraints on the power of the central government.
In their understanding of the Depression, Roosevelt and his economic advisers had cause and effect reversed. They did not recognize that prices had fallen because of the Depression. They believed that the Depression prevailed because prices had fallen. The obvious remedy, then, was to raise prices, which they decided to do by creating artificial shortages. Hence arose a collection of crackpot policies designed to cure the Depression by cutting back on production. The scheme was so patently self-defeating that it's hard to believe anyone seriously believed it would work.
The goofiest application of the theory had to do with the price of gold. Starting with the bank holiday and proceeding through a massive gold-buying program, Roosevelt abandoned the gold standard, the bedrock restraint on inflation and government growth. He nationalized the monetary gold stock, forbade the private ownership of gold (except for jewelry, scientific or industrial uses, and foreign payments), and nullified all contractual promises--whether public or private, past or future--to pay in gold.
Besides being theft, gold confiscation didn't work. The price of gold was increased from $20.67 to $35.00 per ounce, a 69% increase, but the domestic price level increased only 7% between 1933 and 1934, and over rest of the decade it hardly increased at all. FDR's devaluation provoked retaliation by other countries, further strangling international trade and throwing the world's economies further into depression.
Having hobbled the banking system and destroyed the gold standard, he turned next to agriculture. Working with the politically influential Farm Bureau and the Bernard Baruch gang, Roosevelt pushed through the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933. It provided for acreage and production controls, restrictive marketing agreements, and regulatory licensing of processors and dealers "to eliminate unfair practices and charges." It authorized new lending, taxed processors of agricultural commodities, and rewarded farmers who cut back production.
The objective was to raise farm commodity prices until they reached a much higher "parity" level. The millions who could hardly feed and clothe their families can be forgiven for questioning the nobility of a program designed to make food and fiber more expensive. Though this was called an "emergency" measure, no President since has seen fit to declare the emergency over.
Industry was virtually nationalized under Roosevelt's National Industrial Recovery Act of 1933. Like most New Deal legislation, this resulted from a compromise of special interests: businessmen seeking higher prices and barriers to competition, labor unionists seeking governmental sponsorship and protection, social workers wanting to control working conditions and forbid child labor, and the proponents of massive spending on public works.
The legislation allowed the President to license businesses or control imports to achieve the vaguely identified objectives of the act. Every industry had to have a code of fair competition. The codes contained provisions setting minimum wages, maximum hours, and "decent" working conditions. The policy rested on the dubious notion that what the country needed most was cartelized business, higher prices, less work, and steep labor costs.
To administer the act, Roosevelt established the National Recovery Administration and named General Hugh Johnson, a crony of Baruch's and a former draft administrator, as head. Johnson adopted the famous Blue Eagle emblem and forced businesses to display it and abide by NRA codes. There were parades, billboards, posters, buttons, and radio ads, all designed to silence those who questioned the policy. Not since the First World War had there been anything like the outpouring of hoopla and coercion. Cutting prices became "chiseling" and the equivalent of treason. The policy was enforced by a vast system of agents and informers.
Eventually the NRA approved 557 basic and 189 supplementary codes, covering about 95% of all industrial employees. Big businessmen dominated the writing and implementing of the documents. They generally aimed to suppress competition. Figuring prominently in this effort were minimum prices, open price schedules, standardization of products and services, and advance notice of intent to change prices. Having gained the government's commitment to stilling competition, the tycoons looked forward to profitable repose.
But the initial enthusiasm evaporated when the NRA did not deliver, and for obvious reasons. Even its corporate boosters began to object to the regimentation it required. By the time the Supreme Court invalidated the whole undertaking in early 1935, most of its former supporters had lost their taste for it.
Striking down the NRA, Chief Justice Charles Evans Hughes wrote that "extraordinary conditions do not create or enlarge constitutional power." Congress "cannot delegate legislative power to the President to exercise an unfettered discretion to make whatever laws he thinks may be needed."
The Free Market: How FDR Made the Depression Worse

Quote:
"Why the Great Depression lasted so long has always been a great mystery, and because we never really knew the reason, we have always worried whether we would have another 10- to 15-year economic slump," said Ohanian, vice chair of UCLA's Department of Economics. "We found that a relapse isn't likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies."

In an article in the August issue of the Journal of Political Economy, Ohanian and Cole blame specific anti-competition and pro-labor measures that Roosevelt promoted and signed into law June 16, 1933.

"President Roosevelt believed that excessive competition was responsible for the Depression by reducing prices and wages, and by extension reducing employment and demand for goods and services," said Cole, also a UCLA professor of economics. "So he came up with a recovery package that would be unimaginable today, allowing businesses in every industry to collude without the threat of antitrust prosecution and workers to demand salaries about 25 percent above where they ought to have been, given market forces. The economy was poised for a beautiful recovery, but that recovery was stalled by these misguided policies."

Using data collected in 1929 by the Conference Board and the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Cole and Ohanian were able to establish average wages and prices across a range of industries just prior to the Depression. By adjusting for annual increases in productivity, they were able to use the 1929 benchmark to figure out what prices and wages would have been during every year of the Depression had Roosevelt's policies not gone into effect. They then compared those figures with actual prices and wages as reflected in the Conference Board data.

In the three years following the implementation of Roosevelt's policies, wages in 11 key industries averaged 25 percent higher than they otherwise would have done, the economists calculate. But unemployment was also 25 percent higher than it should have been, given gains in productivity.
FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate / UCLA Newsroom


Peter Schiff Schools Mainstream Econohacks on Great Depression - YouTube
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:35 PM
 
9,848 posts, read 8,248,624 times
Reputation: 3296
Quote:
Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey View Post
Conservatives love to talk about how bad of a president FDR was when it is a fact that the country loved him in the 1930s to the point they elected him 4 times.
Because he gave away things in exchange for the broke which has continued with Democrats thought today.
We are now collapsing from the great society and government over pay and employment we added to the prior bribes.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:48 PM
 
29,939 posts, read 39,323,978 times
Reputation: 4798
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
A jump start, hmmm. Reminds me of what Keynes said, "in the long-run, we're all dead."

I recommend reading Christina Romer's 1992 work in the Journal of Economics.

I don't think you got that right. GDP growth in the following years (bil.)

1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945
800 869 943 1,094 1,235 1,399 1,499 1,474
9% 9% 16% 13% 13% 7% -2%

Sorry for the crude table but anyone should be able to see that growth during the War years was double-digits (ex. 1944) and negative when the war ended.

source of raw data: Military production during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now you're just spreading propaganda and lies...

Quote:
Fiscal policy played a relatively small role in stimulating recovery in the United States. Indeed, the Revenue Act of 1932 increased American tax rates greatly in an attempt to balance the federal budget, and by doing so dealt another contractionary blow to the economy by further discouraging spending. Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal, initiated in early 1933, did include a number of new federal programs aimed at generating recovery. For example, the Works Progress Administration (WPA) hired the unemployed to work on government building projects, and the Agricultural Adjustment Administration (AAA) gave large payments to farmers. However, the actual increases in government spending and the government budget deficit were small relative to the size of the economy. This is especially apparent when state government budget deficits are included, because those deficits actually declined at the same time that the federal deficit rose. As a result, the new spending programs initiated by the New Deal had little direct expansionary effect on the economy. Whether they may nevertheless have had positive effects on consumer and business sentiment remains an open question. United States military spending related to World War II was not large enough to appreciably affect total spending and output until 1941.
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~cromer/great_depression.pdf
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Texas
37,942 posts, read 17,724,642 times
Reputation: 10366
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
A jump start, hmmm. Reminds me of what Keynes said, "in the long-run, we're all dead."

I recommend reading Christina Romer's 1992 work in the Journal of Economics.

I don't think you got that right. GDP growth in the following years (bil.)

1938 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945
800 869 943 1,094 1,235 1,399 1,499 1,474
9% 9% 16% 13% 13% 7% -2%

Sorry for the crude table but anyone should be able to see that growth during the War years was double-digits (ex. 1944) and negative when the war ended.

source of raw data: Military production during World War II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Why base it on GDP? If we build a missle and blow it up the next day GDP improves. big deal
Keep ignoring the fact that the people could not purchase quality goods.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Texas
37,942 posts, read 17,724,642 times
Reputation: 10366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Yeah, we should have let people starve and/or die of exposure b/c they were homeless.
You mean like FDR tried to do? Are ignoring the fact that crops were plowed under because FDR would not allow them to be sold at a lower price?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
You need a crystal ball to predict "what would have happened if". NO ONE can say with any certainty what WOULD have happened.
You can make comparison between successful policies and ones that are not successful during similar circumstances.
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Old 11-23-2011, 08:59 PM
 
29,939 posts, read 39,323,978 times
Reputation: 4798
What got us out of the GD was full blown socialism with powers granted in the Emergency Powers Act and a war economy.

Even Keynes said that along with government spending you needed tax cuts and works programs. It doesn't hurt if you're murdering/killing your competition en masse.
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