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Old 11-26-2011, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,295 posts, read 121,230,694 times
Reputation: 35920

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
That really has no bearing on the point that I'm making. I never said the private sector could provide every service in the universe. I just said it was more efficient.



You pointed out one instance. How about you go fetch a list of government agencies that have disappeared in the last ten years, and then another list of businesses that have failed in the last ten years. Then we'll see how they stack up.

This doesn't require an understanding of economics, just the ability to open your mind to common sense for a couple of seconds.

I have no time for intellectual dishonesty.
I have no time for people who make insulting comments accusing others of dishonesty b/c they disagree with their preconceived ideas.
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Old 11-26-2011, 09:42 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,295 posts, read 121,230,694 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
Oh, IDK. How about you try adding in ridiculous pensions into those equations. You know, the ones crippling nearly a dozen states.
Not local health departments, I can assure you.
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Old 11-26-2011, 09:44 AM
 
29,917 posts, read 39,576,012 times
Reputation: 4799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I gave an example from my personal experience. Perhaps you could do the same? If it happened to me, it can't be too unusual.

And as for pgh's comment, which I just now saw b/c I have him on ignore, by Sam's criteria, we'd have just gotten paid for not doing anything when the patient load went down.

Speaking of "competition", the HD once had a program manager who was career climbing and wanted to "outsource" the imm. clinics. No one wanted to take them over. Sometimes govt. has to be the provider of lasat resort.
I've got one. I worked for a government contractor where the entire plant for decades on end was a cost plus business structure. That particular plant's (which built IS, ATS and guidance system for the military) "plus" was approximately 10%. What that meant was that when everything was paid for regarding labor, materials, manufacturing, etc there was a 10% profit no matter what. That meant that if the government ordered 1,000 Advanced Technology Systems there was nothing holding back production.

These were some of the laziest workers on the planet. When the business structure changed and actually had to turn a profit they were all dumbfounded in how to do so. They brought in the right people at the top and they started implementing a six sigma plan. However, that was the last thing any of these workers wanted. Why? Because if the plant closed they could all retire with 52 weeks of pay, pensions, plant closure bonuses and on top of that they could file for UE when all that was paid out. Needless to say most of the people were sloths and the work environment was one where you literally had people wishing and hoping and talking about plant closure on a daily basis.

Finally the production started picking up as we mechanized more and more of it got away from through-hole parts and wave soldering machines. We also mechanized the inspection process and then these people had the unmitigated gall to complain that they were being worked out of a job, that we were producing too fast and the plant would close too quickly and that they only needed one more year or so before they could retire on a cushy pillow.

The plant never closed. It merged with another sister company, laid off most of those people and turned it into a research, engineering and development center.

That's the story of GD - ATS.
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Old 11-26-2011, 09:46 AM
 
6,137 posts, read 4,877,524 times
Reputation: 1517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I have no time for people who make insulting comments accusing others of dishonesty b/c they disagree with their preconceived ideas.
Lol. If anyone's letting their preconceived ideas hold them back it is you. You haven't addressed any points I've made, you threw a couple anecdotes at me and that was it.

I'm going to ask you this: Do you think that an inefficient government agency is just as likely to die as an inefficient business with competitors?

Hell, let's even discard the fact that government has the power to increase revenue by force and business doesn't (even though that is my strongest point). Let's just look at the competition aspect. Who's more efficient and stronger? A guy with unlimited resources to himself or a guy who has to fight ten other guys for every meal?
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
44,882 posts, read 33,383,463 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Mon View Post
Tell that to the people who were brought out of abject poverty by those programs. The "subsistence wages" provided by the WPA and CCC kept many families from starving, trained previously uneducated young men for new industries, and built a large part of our public infrastructure. Say what you will about FDR the man, and feel free to rant on with your revisionists outlook that the Depression, "wasn't that bad," and that it didn't pick up until we entered the war. However, don't disparage the many families that were saved by those programs.

Also, you'd think the CCC and WPA would be popular among conservatives. I mean, it's work instead of direct welfare.
Were you around in the 1930s? I heard so many people referring to the WPA as the We Piddle Around because they did all that work with hand and so many pictures were available that showed them standing around leaning on their shovels. It is the kind of handwork they did that Obama referred to with his shovel ready proclamation.

The CCC was made up of very young men who, again, worked with shovels and other hand tools to do jobs that could have been done with the construction tools available back then. I think that the only contribution to family living done by the CCC was the fact that they lived in conditions like what soldiers experienced while "in the field". They sure as hell didn't live in houses with their families and the real pay for them was food provided by "field" cooks.

I am not trying to say anything bad about FDR because his small group of men called the "brain trust" who did most of his planning was very valuable in the advice they gave him. By following them he did manage to help many unemployed men get out of the "soup" lines and into work. They constructed many things that were considered public but would be screamed against today. The football bleachers in the town I went to high school in were built by the WPA. Permanent structures built out of concrete that are still there and haven't had a lot of work done on them.

Calling me a revisionist calls to mind the fact that a history professor in the 1970s told us that the FDR revisionists were hard at it and he ceased to be so much of hero soon after that. The one thing they convinced me of was that he set up the poor Japanese by bringing the entire Pacific Fleet, minus the carriers into Pearl Harbor all summer and fall. I guess that "Brain Trust" determined that sooner or later the Japanese would get us into war from taking what they could get. Most people knew that the day of the battleship was gone and the carriers would determine the outcome of war in the Pacific. This makes so much sense to me that I just can't see anything else as the reason for that every week end bane to the Hawaiian economy.
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
44,882 posts, read 33,383,463 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by k.smith904 View Post
Why was bush elected twice if he was the Antichrist people make him out to be?

Answer: The stupidity of the average American voter.
I would answer your question with the fact that the Democrats failed to nominate a credible candidate. You know old Jon Carry never had a chance. He was one of the people who lied so often that he never really knew whether he was really a military hero or just one in his mind.
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,792 posts, read 14,007,530 times
Reputation: 5661
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475
Oh, IDK. How about you try adding in ridiculous pensions into those equations. You know, the ones crippling nearly a dozen states.
If there was every a false assertion this is it. In most of those states the cause of their financial problems stem from the state choosing to under-fund their pensions, not because the pensions are so large and generous. In other states, such as Wisconsin, the workers are paid less and receive higher pensions. According to Forbes:

Quote:
Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can this be possible?

Simple. The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,792 posts, read 14,007,530 times
Reputation: 5661
Quote:
Originally Posted by roysoldboy View Post
Were you around in the 1930s? I heard so many people referring to the WPA as the We Piddle Around because they did all that work with hand and so many pictures were available that showed them standing around leaning on their shovels. It is the kind of handwork they did that Obama referred to with his shovel ready proclamation.

The CCC was made up of very young men who, again, worked with shovels and other hand tools to do jobs that could have been done with the construction tools available back then. I think that the only contribution to family living done by the CCC was the fact that they lived in conditions like what soldiers experienced while "in the field". They sure as hell didn't live in houses with their families and the real pay for them was food provided by "field" cooks.

I am not trying to say anything bad about FDR because his small group of men called the "brain trust" who did most of his planning was very valuable in the advice they gave him. By following them he did manage to help many unemployed men get out of the "soup" lines and into work. They constructed many things that were considered public but would be screamed against today. The football bleachers in the town I went to high school in were built by the WPA. Permanent structures built out of concrete that are still there and haven't had a lot of work done on them.

Calling me a revisionist calls to mind the fact that a history professor in the 1970s told us that the FDR revisionists were hard at it and he ceased to be so much of hero soon after that. The one thing they convinced me of was that he set up the poor Japanese by bringing the entire Pacific Fleet, minus the carriers into Pearl Harbor all summer and fall. I guess that "Brain Trust" determined that sooner or later the Japanese would get us into war from taking what they could get. Most people knew that the day of the battleship was gone and the carriers would determine the outcome of war in the Pacific. This makes so much sense to me that I just can't see anything else as the reason for that every week end bane to the Hawaiian economy.
The WPA and CCC were work programs. With the excess of labor it made no sense to try to save labor by using heavy machinery that probably were in short supply.
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:47 AM
 
29,917 posts, read 39,576,012 times
Reputation: 4799
Besides wanting a source...

Quote:
Of the 126 plans in our sample, 70 had reported their 2010 funded levels by mid-May 2011. For those plans without valuations, we projected assets on a plan-by-plan basis using the detailed process described in the valuations.3 Applying our methodology retrospectively produced numbers for previous years that perfectly match published asset values in half the cases and that came within 1 percent in the other half. We projected liabilities based on their rate of growth in the most recent year of published data. We then sent our proposed projections to the plan administrators and made any suggested alterations. This process resulted in a complete set of plan funded ratios for fiscal year 2010. The aggregate funded ratio was 77 percent – $2.7 trillion in actuarial assets compared to $3.5 trillion in liabilities.

The reason for the slight decline in funded levels from 2009 to 2010 is that liabilities grew at about their historical rate while actuarial assets increased more slowly. This outcome may seem strange given that the stock market rose 50 percent between the trough in 2009 and December 2010. The explanation is that actuaries tend to smooth the fluctuations in market values by averaging gains and losses, generally over a five-year period. So while market asset values in 2010 were significantly higher than in 2009, they were virtually identical to 2005, the year replaced in the five-year moving average (see Figure 2).
http://crr.bc.edu/images/stories/slp_17_508.pdf (broken link)
Quote:
The Center provides decision-makers in the public and private sectors with critical information to better understand the issues facing an aging population. The Center’s research program spans the four main areas that affect a household's retirement income: 1) Social Security, 2) employer-sponsored pension plans, 3) household saving, and 4) labor market trends among older workers. Click here for our current research projects (http://crr.bc.edu/linked_in_content_pages/current_projects.html - broken link) and financial education projects (http://crr.bc.edu/linked_in_content_pages/all_flrc_projects-5.html - broken link).
The Center’s work also goes beyond economics. We seek to understand the human behavior behind individuals' decisions so that we can focus on solutions that work in practice, not just in theory.
Since its inception in 1998, the Center has established a reputation as an authoritative source of information on all major aspects of the retirement debate.
What we do - Center for Retirement Research at Boston College (http://crr.bc.edu/what_we_do/what_we_do.html - broken link)

Quote:
The Public Plans Database (PPD) contains comprehensive financial, governance, and plan design information for 126 state and local defined benefit plans.* At the state level, the PPD covers 107 plans, which represent more than 90 percent of all state government pension assets and members. At the local level, the PPD covers 19 plans, which represent more than 20 percent of all local government pension assets and members. On a combined basis, the PPD represents more than 85 percent of total state and local government pension assets and members.
http://pubplans.bc.edu/pls/htmldb/f?p=198:3:1407329083753738::NO::: (broken link)

The latter website has troubles from time to time with its databases. This is apparently one of those times (at least for me)...
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Old 11-26-2011, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Texas
37,955 posts, read 17,980,312 times
Reputation: 10397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
No one can say with certainty what would have happened in different circumstances.

"For All Sad Words Of Tongue And Pen, The Saddest Are These, 'It Might Have Been'."

It's an intellectual exercise at best.
You didn't say anything related to policy. Instead a link to a cheerleader statement. Words don't get things done, actions do. Successful policies do.
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